What could you do with the Magister & carrier capapble Zephyr?
Single Seater?
Swept wing variants?
Larger more capable variant, use a CF-100 Canuck as a basis?
Loose the V tail, or would that be sacrilige??? :blink:
Here's some profiles I posted on my profile thread, mostly in order to work my own ideas for the Trainers with Teeth GB out:
1. Is a standard Magister.
2. Has the rear cockpit replaced with two 30mm DEFAs or 20mm Mk.12s in the lower fuselage, with their barrels under the front cockpit and an access panel and gas vent on the side. I didn't like the idea of MB-326K-style side blisters, since the Magister's air intakes are further back and I could see gun gas going into them. However I've since thought better of this, so maybe side blisters would work after all.
3. Has the front cockpit replaced by two 30mm DEFAs in an enlarged gun bay in place of the original 7.62mm weapons. The only problem I can see with this one is that the ammo is a long way ahead of the CofG, so it might cause a trim problem as it was expended.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2FmagisterFIN.jpg&hash=e473d789b23707b1236f69371d5e3bf599a9578a)
Swept wing seems doable, and the Fiat G.91 immediately springing to mind as a donor. Since I've got both kits, I'll have a butchers when I get home.
There was an advanced version (Aerospatiale CM90) which flew as a prototype. It had stepped seating, four pylons and Astafan IIg engines. It didn't get any takers, but in the back story for my TwTGB idea the Israelis bought the whole programme, thus making the original "Tzukits" surplus and available for conversion to single-seat attack versions for export.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2Ffou90.jpg&hash=a8779965aece0f648aad4994ff863f2fe75685b1)
They also built a prototype of a four-seat liason version in collaboration with Heinkel (who built the standard Magister under licence for Germany), in the style of the Ms.760 Paris. This had a wider fuselage and a big, one-piece canopy. Nice looking plane IMHO.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2Ffouga4.jpg&hash=fb055f4eb2b01d2d909f53be45001a2215c72b29)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2FPotezheinkelpl.jpg&hash=7eb8f13b573feff88f71b220de93f31f145418c8)
That would be the ultimate Tweet rip-off ;)
What about shifting the cockpit & nose gear aft a touch & enlarging the nose for a basic radar for IFR work?
Shas 8)
As promised, swept-wing Magister mockup, using G.91 wings and tailplanes:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2FMagister002.jpg&hash=b6cdc93d4490ea408417ea7ad4d449c887173b39)
The Magister wing roots are much thicker and narrower chord than the Gina's, but not beyond a bit of butchery and PSR.
Here it is with the Magister wings under it to show the relative sizes. Looks pretty good to me:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2FMagister003.jpg&hash=62473124cd586d7eacb493eba0fb18918da8b5ad)
The G.91 tailplanes are, unsuprisingly, much smaller than the Magister's combined fin/tails (Fails? Tins? Hmmmm :lol:). I couldn't fit them directly anyway since their lugs are thicker than the Magister's slots, so I've extended them with blu-tack. Probably best to use parts from some other kit (F-86?) if you were doing it for real.
Please note that I do NOT intend to build this model: I really like the credibility of the background story for my Magister project, and a swept wing conversion would be too radical. If someone else wants to do it though, feel free: I'd love to see the finished result.
Thanks for posting those projects, the CM.191 rings a vague bell from somewhere, but I didn't know about the CM.90.
That swept wing magister looks nice & someone needs (http://needs) to build that! :wub: I can imagine that in the real world, there might be al sorts of engineering fun that that wing might cause.
Quote from: Mossie on September 05, 2008, 03:56:05 AM
Thanks for posting those projects, the CM.191 rings a vague bell from somewhere, but I didn't know about the CM.90.
That swept wing magister looks nice & someone needs (http://needs) to build that! :wub: I can imagine that in the real world, there might be al sorts of engineering fun that that wing might cause.
Oh yeah - it overlaps the engine bay doors for a start.... Also , the Gina's u/c is half in the fuselage whilst the Mag's is all in the wing, so the half bays in the Gina's wings are too small, and on the Airfix Gina, the wings are moulded in one piece... :banghead:
What's probably a better scheme occurred to me afterwards: put the wings
above the engine pods in the shoulder position, fit the complete Gina fin and tailplanes and pass it off as a "'60s Alpha Jet". You'd have to make new, fuselage-mounted u/c of course, but with the wing box removed from the intake duct, it should be possible to route the latter over a suitable bay.
Since the Gina wings are spare, I'm now contemplating buying another Magister..... :rolleyes:
4 seats and swept wings are wonderful ideas :wub: :wub:
I tried a pair of F-86 tailplanes on it tonight: perfect! And guess what? They're going to be spare too..... ever get the feeling that you're being pushed into something by unseen forces? :unsure: ;D
Lose the V-tail and replace with T-tail. Add V-tail to Canada's Tutor.
Add exhaust whistles to the real machine as it whistles tremendously already!!!!
Daryl J.
Another CM 191 3-view, this one scanned from Flug-Revue, June 1961.
Jon
Practicality aside, a CM-191, or an MS-760 Paris, or the projected Cessna 6-seater based on the T-37, would be SO much cooler than a Learjet........ ;D :thumbsup:
Or even the Hawker P.1128 Huntsman, a bizjet with Hunter wings:
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,13717.0/highlight,hawker+huntsman.html (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,13717.0/highlight,hawker+huntsman.html)
I suppose there's no reason why you couldn't modify a Magister in a similar, although I don't think that wing would be much use to a Bizjet? Mind you, like you mentioned Weave, there's the cool factor of military jets converted to bizjets! :ph34r:
Quote from: Mossie on September 19, 2008, 04:44:00 AM
Or even the Hawker P.1128 Huntsman, a bizjet with Hunter wings:
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,13717.0/highlight,hawker+huntsman.html (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,13717.0/highlight,hawker+huntsman.html)
Cheers - never heard of that! :thumbsup: Damn is it pretty...... :wub: :wub: :wub:
Quote
I suppose there's no reason why you couldn't modify a Magister in a similar, although I don't think that wing would be much use to a Bizjet? Mind you, like you mentioned Weave, there's the cool factor of military jets converted to bizjets! :ph34r:
Weeeeell a biz jet needs a steady ride rather than agility, so putting a trainer wing on a bigger, heavier fuselage would be appropriate. I agree that you might be pushing it a bit with the Magister though....
There was a US company called Jet Craft who were going to build 6/8-seat biz-jets based on surplus Vampires (!) back in the early 1970s the result to be called the Mystery Jet MJ1. I think there was a UK attempt to do something similar too.
This is the US one:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fphotos.airliners.net%2Fphotos%2Fphotos%2F3%2F9%2F8%2F0196893.jpg&hash=168a6c0bec54eb262c44c09f7da3b87d549b2391)
More info here (at the end):
http://www.vectorsite.net/avvamp_1.html
Quote from: Weaver on September 04, 2008, 01:23:08 PM
As promised, swept-wing Magister mockup, using G.91 wings and tailplanes:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2FMagister002.jpg&hash=b6cdc93d4490ea408417ea7ad4d449c887173b39)
Okay, that's way too pretty to sit unbuilt!
Quote from: Mossie on September 19, 2008, 04:44:00 AM
Mind you, like you mentioned Weave, there's the cool factor of military jets converted to bizjets! :ph34r:
Ya mean like the Learjet? ;D
Swiss P-16, progenitor of the Learjet:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhsfeatures.com%2Ffeatures04%2Fimages%2FComplete-7-web.jpg&hash=a1ede4ed8500e5b0c700fd3cc6ff237970b4c965)
http://hsfeatures.com/features04/p16fm_1.htm (http://hsfeatures.com/features04/p16fm_1.htm)
Jon
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on September 19, 2008, 09:51:48 AM
Quote from: Mossie on September 19, 2008, 04:44:00 AM
Mind you, like you mentioned Weave, there's the cool factor of military jets converted to bizjets! :ph34r:
Ya mean like the Learjet? ;D
Swiss P-16, progenitor of the Learjet:
Wow - that's an impressive model: I could never find the time for something like that, even in the unlikely event of me ever acquiring enough skill.....
I really like the P-16: since anything a German ever sketched on the back of a fag packet seems fair game for an injection kit these days, it's high time someone did a P-16 kit for us mere mortals...
What I meant by the CM-191 et al being cooler than a Learjet is that their blown hoods makes them still feel like military fighters, whereas the "standard" business jet (of which the Learjet is just the usual example) feels more like a mini-airliner. I suppose the latter would apply to the P.1128 really, although with two Avons, it's performance should still have been exciting!
Quote from: Weaver on September 19, 2008, 12:15:35 PM
What I meant by the CM-191 et al being cooler than a Learjet is that their blown hoods makes them still feel like military fighters, whereas the "standard" business jet (of which the Learjet is just the usual example) feels more like a mini-airliner. I suppose the latter would apply to the P.1128 really, although with two Avons, it's performance should still have been exciting!
I guess then that you'd like the proposed
family model of the T-2 Buckeye. ;D
Room for four and carrier qualified, who could ask for more? :cheers:
Jon
If we're talking bix-jet derivatives of trainers, don't forget the bix-planes variants of the MB.326 that AerMacchi studied (MB.328/329/330 series of studies). The kept the basic wings and tail surfaces of the MB.326 and added a new fuselage and engine nacelles; 328 and 329 were turboprops, 330 used two CJ610s like the early Learjets and the prototype Falcon 10.
Okay, I gave in to the inevitable: another Airfix Magister is currently winging it's way to me courtesy of the ebay fairy (actually, she's sat kicking her heels in the local sorting office until I can get down there to pick it up, Royal Mail having achieved their usual level of service.... :rolleyes:)
It will be done in Israeli trainer colours as a "Super-Tzukit" in support of my Trainers-with-Teeth single-seat Magister, which needs an advanced Israeli version in the back story to free it up for conversion and export. The original idea was that the Israelis bought out the CM.90 programme for a song when it got no takers, but the same could just as easily be said of a whiff swept-wing version.
Maybe a RAAF/RAN Magister instead of Macchi???
Regards,
Greg
Just found the ideal improved canopy for the swept-wing Magister: 1/100th Tomcat :party: :drink:
The Tomcat is a crappy Chinese(?) job that I only bought to nick the wings from, so it's no sacrifice. :thumbsup:
Oh man - did some on-line research about Magisters tonight and came up with a whole bunch of interesting stuff.
1. Fouga artwork showing a conventional tail version:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2FMagisterT-tail.jpg&hash=1974d9d1abd5b0ef38d81307a9cab32bfb9815e0)
2. The CM 171 Makalu. All I can find on this apart from the pics is a single line to the effect that it was a high-altitude version.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2FMakalu.jpg&hash=4968fa5228f6edaf19b6a75a0a16c0cb8641ffe2)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2Fmakalu3-view.jpg&hash=da72bb7174d3571c6ed6fba20dfaab61c151dc3b)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2Fmakaluph.jpg&hash=9e640468d704594d1d714982c169e7c2bdd06791)
3. And just when you think you've had an original idea........
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2Fcm-195-2.jpg&hash=0271779f301bd150a0512e2fc9ff1c9c26548fcb)
:rolleyes: I can find out even less about this one - it's a CM-195, but that's it.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2FCM195-3.jpg&hash=f10608176a74a35fb2ade32f3cac30a506917c94)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FMagister%2Fsweptcm-195.jpg&hash=322e4bc7771a2978c9a07b7c73e5f5bff5d7c0ef)
Maybe ask on Secret Projects for some further info. Nice finds though, especially the CM-195.
Regards,
Greg
Quote from: GTX on December 06, 2008, 11:27:49 PM
Maybe ask on Secret Projects for some further info. Nice finds though, especially the CM-195.
Regards,
Greg
Way ahead of you...... ;D
Secret Projects has turned out to be the usual goldmine: Jemiba and Archibald have come up with some fascinating stuff here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1448.0.html
(you have to be member to see the pics, but it is soooooooo worth it unless you actively hate aircraft..... ;D)
Finds include CM.175 (and possibly 176) single-seat attack version (sigh, you try to be original..... :rolleyes: ;D), and CM.178 twin turboprop COIN aircraft..... :blink:
When seeing the CM-171 pic for the first time, the thought that came to mind was "The French have a base to develop something like a U-2".
Daryl J.
A pocket U2 ! ;D
Maybe as a successor to this beauty ?
http://www.aviafrance.com/aviafrance1.php?ID=1040&ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=1144
Yeah my first thought was "U2", but then my next one was "and do what?" : it's got no room for serious cameras...
Quote from: Archibald on December 10, 2008, 06:05:48 AM
Maybe as a successor to this beauty ?
http://www.aviafrance.com/aviafrance1.php?ID=1040&ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=1144
Now I can't IMAGINE where they got the idea of that one from........
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg509.imageshack.us%2Fimg509%2F9783%2Frepublicrainbowco5.jpg&hash=f09acbbc85073da082b6b34cc9292d2fa96bf3a7)
and you're right! The SE-1010, first flight october 1948... sole prototype entered a flat spin one year later, killing the crew :huh: (where's the crying smiley when you need it ?!!)
Quote from: Weaver on December 10, 2008, 06:54:03 AM
Yeah my first thought was "U2", but then my next one was "and do what?" : it's got no room for serious cameras...
i don't know - maybe if you did something like this with a camera behind the pilot:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FMore%2520Creations%2FfoougaU2.jpg&hash=2637896221e20d481b2e650534a391e7d0a88b3d)
Regards,
Greg
Since the UK uses the Nimrod, which is based on 1950's (?1940's?) technology, and the US uses the KC-135 which is also 1950's, why not have this reconnaisance machine as above using ultra sophisticated digital/miniaturized camera gear with possible satellite instant transmission for live readings?
:thumbsup:
Daryl J.
If you displaced the fuselage fuel tanks to the new, longer wings, there would be room for a French version of the U-2's 'Q Bay' perhaps?
Fuel tankage in TR.1-like pods midwing? Hmmmm.......
Greg's profile is simply :thumbsup:
Daryl J.
Greg's profile (nice one :thumbsup:) is probably the way to go, because it has enough height for a serious camera. Remember, this is one seriously small aircraft: you get in it without a ladder and the left/right hinge is halfway up the joystick because if it was on the floor, your thighs wouldn'r let you move it..... :blink:
Some of the U-2 camera fits were horizontal, with mirrors on the end to look downward. Like the BAR camera that the PR9s used late in their lives.
I sat in a Magister once, an Irish Air Corps one at Baldonnel. You don't so much get into it as put the thing on! When you're sat in the cockpit you can have an eye-level conversation with the crew-man standing on the ground alongside, an astonishingly low slung aeroplane.
Nice walkaround of the Magister, lots of good info and a fair bit of humour here:
http://www.eaa1000.av.org/pix/fouga/fouga.htm
I particularly like this bit:
Quote
The Fouga is not equipped with ejection seats. Then again, neither was the P-51 or any other World War II fighter, which were in about the same speed and altitude class. Each aircrew wears a backpack style parachute (provided with the aircraft). For semi-automatic operation, the D-ring is attached to the airplane with a static line. If it became necessary to leave the aircraft in anger, release the canopy by pulling the canopy locking lever and the canopy should open and blow away (push it a little if necessary). Then get up and dive over the side (your IP will brief you on the best way to do this). When you get to the end of the static line, it will pull your D-ring, deploying the parachute.
CAUTION
You will lose massive cool points if, at the end of your flight, safely back in your parking spot, you get out of the jet without first disconnecting the static line. Pulling out part of the static line is bad. Getting far enough to deploy the parachute is...well, you don't want to think about it.
Part of the success criteria for a good mission is never finding out how long that static line is.
Also shown here behind the rear seat is the rear pressure bulkhead. While some Fougas make it appear that you can see through the rear canopy, you can't--this bulkhead is in the way. The aft glass just allows the radio antennas to see the world. Here the aft canopy is painted over. The radios haven't complained yet.
;D
Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on December 24, 2008, 06:59:27 AM
Howzabout converting the Magister or Zephyr from the "V" tail to a conventional tail set up? Or maybe convert it to a "T" tail arrangement to get Barry's attention.
Jeff - scroll back to reply #21: Fouga actually did a conventional tail on the second prototype. Off the top of my head, I'd say a T-37/A-37 fin and rudder would be about right - you could always convert the A-37 to single engine and twin booms.... :wacko: . For a T-tail, the Tutor springs to mind, although I'm not sure what kits are available.
Quote from: Weaver on December 24, 2008, 12:55:41 PM
Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on December 24, 2008, 06:59:27 AM
Howzabout converting the Magister or Zephyr from the "V" tail to a conventional tail set up? Or maybe convert it to a "T" tail arrangement to get Barry's attention.
Jeff - scroll back to reply #21: Fouga actually did a conventional tail on the second prototype. Off the top of my head, I'd say a T-37/A-37 fin and rudder would be about right - you could always convert the A-37 to single engine and twin booms.... :wacko: . For a T-tail, the Tutor springs to mind, although I'm not sure what kits are available.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Missed it during the review of previous comments.
Just reading in Air Enthusiast 86 that the Fouga Magister was one of the finalists for the South African order that went to the MB.326M. The other candidate was the Jet Provost.
Could be an interesting point of divergence there, particularly given the SAAF's extensive later use of the single-seat MB.326K and the mention up-stream of the CM.175 single-seat Magister. Probably well short of the 326K in performance and couldn't have carried the big 30mm cannon; would the SAAF have settled for it or looked elsewhere?
French Nuclear tipped cruise missile?
Fouga 90 with standard tail
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Fouga90_tail.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Fouga90_tail.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Nice. I have always loved the Fouga 90. :thumbsup:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52783848291_e8b0fac672_o.png)
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: