Hey guys, I have a question about escort fighters for my alternate history. In it the Allies get beaten back to the US losing all of Europe including England! The farthest point under Allied control is Greenland. I have a rather large set of naval and air bases installed there between 1942-1950. After England falls in 1945, Iceland follows within a year. Leaving these bases as staging points for strikes against occupied Iceland and England.
From what I can tell flying from Greenland to Iceland is around 880 statute miles. For air strikes I have B-29s in the beginning giving way to B-47s by 1947-48. Both bombers have more than enough range to hit both targets and get back. Problem is the Luftwaffe has a lot of potent new toys requiring the bombers to be escorted (no repeats of the B-17 massacres over Europe). We'd have to retake Iceland before we could really pound England. Greenland to England is roughly 1,700 miles one way! The bombers could make it there and back but the fighters don't have a prayer leaving the bombers to be shot down en masse.
Question is, WHAT do the Allies have in their arsenal that has the legs to escort them all the way in and out as well as have some gas left for some dog fighting? For the round trip figure 1,800 miles to be on the safe side. Once you factor in gas for dog fighting, reserves, and drop tanks you find that you need A LOT of it! The escort fighters of the time are all coming up short by several hundred miles WITH drop tanks and the jets of the era are all short legged, so.... :banghead:
Only aircraft I've found that has the necessary legs is the F-82 Twin Mustang which has a range of around 2,000 miles. Not sure how great of a dog fighter it was but so far its the only option. Anyone know of any other aircraft that fit the bill? Experimental, prototypes, whiffs, etc... all kinds are game.
Only other solution to this problem that I can think of is that the USN steps up and creates an "island air base" as close to Iceland as possible with a few Essex/Midway Class CVs and use their fighters as bomber escorts.
Anyone have any ideas? I'm really in a bind here. Any comments, thoughts, ideas, etc... are appreciated as always.
Thanks in advance,
-Mike
What about Scotland, Wales and Ireland? ;D
The first one that springs to mind is the De Havilland Hornet, or maybe a version of the Mosquito for night-fighting. Or what about a version of the Grumman Tigercat? Remove the radar operator or widen the fuselage a bit to fit in more fuel.
The other option of course is parasite fighters - either Mistel-type piggybacking, or XF-85 Goblin-type carriage - or in-flight refuelling for jet-powered fighters.
Alright well after pondering my dilemma some more I found something interesting while reading through Squadron's P-61 In Action book. Apparently during the design contest for the USAAF's long range escort fighter Northrop trimmed down the Widow and gave it a 2,550 mile range albeit with 4 drop tanks. It still lost out to the F-82 although the book didn't elaborate as to why it lost. Well....it still got the light bulbs to go on.
So far my idea is of a field mod to existing P-61Bs and Cs
Bring the Bravos up to Charlie specs with its more powerful version of the Wright Cyclone (Turbocharged R-2800-77s).
Dump the dorsal turret and plate in the after greenhouse.
Use the extra space gained in the fuselage to install B-24 style ferry tanks (actually used to ferry the Widows to their pacific bases where they then traded the tanks for their turrets).
If needed, increase the ammo load for the 20mms.
These modified Widows will fill the immediate need for a bomber escort while the F-82s (as well as a more refined Widow) can come along at a later date and augment the Widows.
Whether or not to retain, swap, or delete the nose radar all together is debatable. In reality, the trimmed down Widows lost them and replaced them with the four Brownings from the turret. I believe that if we were to actually carry out these bombing missions that we'd be doing them only at night for security reasons. A round the clock campaign just wouldn't be feasible, at least in the beginning so retaining the radar would be preferable until the daylight portion starts. The bombing campaign would be followed by an all invasion of Iceland and afterwards the bombers and Widows could relocate and begin attacking England.
I like the idea of the modified F7F Tigercat as well. Maybe make it a land based version with the extra room for fuel tanks and drop tanks. The Mosquito is another option as well since its range is already close, any ideas on how to mod one? According to Wiki the Sea Hornet has a range of 3,000 miles?! The Hornet would be ideal if that figure is correct.
Alright well the modified Widow is still a good stopgap measure until the De Havilland fighters get modified/come online. I like the idea of the Sea Hornet as well the aircraft itself. I hope that range figure is correct, found another site stating that its 2,500 miles.
Any other ideas gents?
Midair refueling would be an option since most of the mission takes place over the water, instead of over enemy territory.
Quote from: Cliffy B on April 29, 2010, 08:25:28 PM
Alright well the modified Widow is still a good stopgap measure until the De Havilland fighters get modified/come online. I like the idea of the Sea Hornet as well the aircraft itself. I hope that range figure is correct, found another site stating that its 2,500 miles.
Any other ideas gents?
Putnam's Royal Air Force quotes the Hornets range as "max 3,000 miles". Their British Naval Aircraft quotes the Sea Hornet F.20 at 1,930 miles with Aux tanks, the Sea Hornet NF 21 at 1,500 miles and the Sea Hornet PR 22 at 2,050 miles.
The 3,000 mile figure looks high to me and their "The British Fighter from 1912" quotes a range for the F.1 as 2,500 miles. That sounds right given the extra weight of the Sea Hornet variants.
However bearing in mind that the US managed to re-engineer a Spitfire Mk V to give it the same range as a Mustang, then "good old US ingenuity" could probably get a few extra miles range out of a Hornet ;D
Quote from: Cliffy B on April 29, 2010, 05:19:19 PM
Only other solution to this problem that I can think of is that the USN steps up and creates an "island air base" as close to Iceland as possible with a few Essex/Midway Class CVs and use their fighters as bomber escorts.
A one word answer to all these problems.....
Habbakuk....... ;D
think the F-80 would work as an Escort Fighter? just something i've Always wondered about.Dan
Quote from: NARSES2 on April 30, 2010, 01:24:24 AM
However bearing in mind that the US managed to re-engineer a Spitfire Mk V to give it the same range as a Mustang, then "good old US ingenuity" could probably get a few extra miles range out of a Hornet ;D
Depends on how suboptimal the Hornet design was, I suppose.
Bring the Bravos up to Charlie specs with its more powerful version of the Wright Cyclone (Turbocharged R-2800-77s). You know the R-2800 is P & W & not a Wright, right?
Convair was developing the XP-81, range was 2500 miles. The A-26 was also proposed as a night fighter & was fast & quite nimble for its size. Maybe an escort A-26.
Quote from: Cliffy B on April 29, 2010, 08:25:28 PM
So far my idea is of a field mod to existing P-61Bs and Cs
Bring the Bravos up to Charlie specs with its more powerful version of the Wright Cyclone (Turbocharged R-2800-77s).
Dump the dorsal turret and plate in the after greenhouse.
Use the extra space gained in the fuselage to install B-24 style ferry tanks (actually used to ferry the Widows to their pacific bases where they then traded the tanks for their turrets).
If needed, increase the ammo load for the 20mms.
Any other ideas gents?
That's what Northrop did Cliff, they made the P-61E, plus four 300 Gal. tanks you got a very long range escort fighter.
Quote from: kitnut617 on April 30, 2010, 06:22:08 AM
<...> you got a very long range escort fighter.
And a very good-looking one, at that! :wub:
Per your original post, if the Navy have carriers in the waters closer to your target, then their fighters could cover them for that portion of the strike. During the Korean War, Navy and Marine F3D Skyknights flew escort for night raids by B-29s.
I think they would be escorting B-36's rather than B-29's. Remember, the first B-36 flight was only a few months after the real war and it's sole purpose was to fly from the States to Europe and back.
I think your options are well covered with P-61Es (maybe like this Super P-61E with Pratt & Whitney R-4360-4s replacing the standard R-2800s I did a little while ago):
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FMore%2520Creations%2FSuperP-61E.jpg&hash=4de140ea8d8833288f456d90b4bb0fdde87f2117):
FICON/Tom Tom type versions:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbp3.blogger.com%2F_7_gMFng3OpY%2FR_lmK84dK8I%2FAAAAAAAADWo%2F5uEVrQ683EU%2Fs1600%2FFICON%252Bla.JPG&hash=555bba5fb4a5af1c054c2f0d4c52f8824fa270d7)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FArtic%2Fb29ficon.jpg&hash=f002763ce15671248b23a01411ec8172fad81eed)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F1%2F17%2FBoeing_B-29_TomTom.jpg&hash=6755d364328dbacd2b36a1e4b776e0119afab5e2)
Air to air refuelling:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fkwvaflchapter14.com%2Fimages-imported%2Fplanes%2Fkb29-84-BBBB.jpg&hash=74c85b9dd4993d3ecc147b0ec204bfb71a11bd37)
and Carrier based escorts meeting them along the way.
Regards,
Greg
B29 YB40 variant strip out the bombload and then hang as much armament as possible on the airframe and boost th engines so they can keep up with the empty bombers
Canada builds the frozen "iceberg aircraft-carrier" Habbakuk....... & stations it halfway with FR2G Corsairs on CAP (rocket-in-tail to altitude).
DHC-built Mosquitos, Hornets or Westland Welkins an outside possibility ?
TigercatPlus sounds reasonable -- don't know about its endurance.
B-35 / B-49 Flying Wings or B-36 with FICON jet-parasites.
Black-Widow (F-61E / F-15 gun-nose).
Luv the F-82 tho ... with its additional gun-pod it would have fourteen 50.cals in a small cone + trees of HVARs on the wings (but no more room for drop-tanks).
Turboprops for all ?? there is the Russian B-29 with them.
Several good short-range jets were designed for the cancelled USS United States -- a Douglas X(F)-3 riding a large missile which held all the out-bound fuel for the fighter !! A B-47 type with V-tail & a Fairchild bi-wing "spaceship" design.
Could do a gun version of the B-47 (a G-47?) like the Reed Project B-17 & B-24's -- but then a B-47recon with a big hole in its tail only just got away from a Mig-15 ...
Of course, everything would have to be in natural-metal as paint weighs a lot (it does on a Jumbo!!), takes a fair bit of fuel just to carry it around.
Icy nose-art -- "the Iceman Commeth" shooting down a Fw-890 over the North Sea ?
Given Germany would have sub-launched V-2's, you'd need more B-29 maritime patrollers.
I think the Boeing XF8B would have been perfect for your role. First flew in 1944, long range, heavy armament. 3 were built, but undoubebtly more would have come on line if things were that dire as in your secenrio. A quick google search will revel all the stats you need.
Thanks for all of the replies guys! Drew up the first two profiles and some short back stories over in my profile thread. Go check 'em out!
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,28037.msg426798.html#msg426798 (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,28037.msg426798.html#msg426798)
Started with the Sea Hornets, next will be some Black Widows, and then onto some XF8Bs, and enlarged Tigercats.
Enlarged Tigercats
The Grumman Sabretooth maybe??