I've seen over the years, various models painted with "invasion stripes" for the invasion of Japan - Operation Downfall. However, their colours have varied somewhat. Should they be just broad white ones, black and white or blue and white or some other colour/combination? Any suggestions?
A lot of the aircraft would have not been camouflaged. What I've seen would suggest that these would simply have either black or very dark blue stripes in a similar manner to the RAF's white SEAC theatre markings. However I've seen nothing definitive and whatever was chosen would have been able to have been applied quickly
SEAC theatre markings? Were they the broad white stripes mid-wing?
Broad stripes mid wing & mid tailplane, not going onto the control surfaces, ditto for the vertical tail. White for camouflaged aircraft, dark blue for NM finished machines.
Regards,
Mav
Like this one mate
It seams to me that this wouldn't have been obvious enough. Aircraft in the ETO had often had black or white wing stripes but when it came to the actual invasion this was considered insufficient. I main reason for these markings was to make it easier for the ground forces to identify an allied aircraft from below and for other allied aircraft to identify it from above. All in the interest of preventing friendly fire incidents as much as possible.
SO, considering the invasion of Japan would have been THAT much messier with thing like itchy trigger fingers and fear of kamikaze attacks, I think the markings would have been AT LEAST as obvious is those for Overlord.
The SEAC markings were only seen on aircraft flown by people that used broken English anyway! The US aircraft which provided the majority in theatre had no such markings so it's unlikely that any consideration would be given just because the British aircraft had stripes already.
My opinion is that extra stripes would have been added to what was already there. Consider another white/black/white/black/white theme with wider bands than the D-Day stripes, based loosely on the width and positioning of the SEAC stripes. Something similar would be specified for all tactical aircraft in theatre.
Another option would be the huge black stripes already carried on some of the P-51 and P-47 escorts in the area. Perhaps someone thought of this as a feasibility study to test the recognition of these stripes from a distance for possible use in the upcoming invasion of Japan.
I've had this question in my head for years and these are the two most likely scenarios I've come up with. Keep in mind, it's all in my head and I have absolutely no reference.
-N8
I've gone for yellow and orange Downfall stripes. Here's why I've got the Downfall Candy Coloured Air Force in the 1946 GB:
QuoteThese invasion stripes differed from those applied for D-Day in Europe partly because white was to avoided. Japanese fighters based in Japan featured white fuselage and wing bands signifying their homeland defence role. Instead, colourful stripes were chosen that would be visually striking on both darkly painted naval and aluminium finished air force aircraft. Several schemes had been tested on a USAAF Thunderbolt and a USN Hellcat and the best on both was an orange-yellow-orange arrangement.
Here's a couple of examples:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi142.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr106%2Fwhatifgh%2F100_5163-1.jpg&hash=3b603e254c5410071f879675ca4ad09d2f91d2dc)
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I've yet to do these stripes in a dark blue USN style camo, but I do point out that post-war USN Reserve a/c had a high-viz orange stripe.
How it would have worked out for real, who knows?
I ended up opting for a combination of British Pacific Fleet markings - as they were in 1945, around Japan and SEAC stripes:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg23.imageshack.us%2Fimg23%2F9321%2F1001673p.jpg&hash=691bef7f70fd923c489b2495580557f873232993)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg683.imageshack.us%2Fimg683%2F2140%2F1001671d.jpg&hash=60401ecc726800c958f4f1ec889a3a6d901c5362)
Looks the stuff Brian. I think the SEAC markings are certainly enough.
Regards,
Mav
I don't want to sound like I'm trying to discredit anyone elses opinion but the stripes would have covered 1000's of aircraft, probably within 24 hours and thus would have to be done in a color that was readily available to every unit at quantity. Black and white.
Again, my problem with the SEAC stripes is no matter how obvious they look when you're staring at a model, they're less obvious on an aircraft seen at odd angles 5000 feet overhead.
The US Marines and soldiers would have some training in aircraft recognition including British aircraft, same for the Empire's troops and US aircraft. Not enough though. Furthermore, there's almost nothing on the side view. From a few thousand feet, how different is a Bearcat going to look than a N1K, especially in the heat of battle. George Preddy was leading a group of natural metal P-51's with brilliant blue noses when he was shot down by friendly fire. Lots of itchy trigger fingers in December 1944. It's a fair guess that Japan in 1946 would have been considerably worse.
Invasion stripes HAVE to be eye catching and glaringly obvious otherwise there's no point in having them. I don't think the Allied command would be comfortable with 'good enough'. Excessive is the name of the game.
-N8
QuoteI don't want to sound like I'm trying to discredit anyone elses opinion but the stripes would have covered 1000's of aircraft, probably within 24 hours and thus would have to be done in a color that was readily available to every unit at quantity. Black and white.
The Poms and French used yellow and black fro the Suez invasion, but some a/c had black and white stripes because there wasn't enough yellow to go round. The yellow, though, showed up really well on the dark blue coloured French Corsairs - I've seen some of those with the the black and yellow stripes and some with just the yellow, because it's all about contrast. If you were planning something as big as Downfall, though, I'm sure you could arrange a good paint supply beforehand - and orange and be mixed from red and yellow in the field, too.
I chose orange and yellow simpley because I was looking for an excuse to use orange paint and I wanted something bright. The story came about as a way to explain an application of orange.
ID would be easy by the time an invasion actually occurred, if it's flyin' it's ours. ;D
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on April 04, 2011, 10:11:02 PM
ID would be easy by the time an invasion actually occurred, if it's flyin' it's ours. ;D
Understand your point Jon but I'd bet on naval AA gunners still having a pop. My dad said that RN AA fired at any aircraft in the Med almost as a matter of principle because from 1940 to mid 1942 it was almost guaranteed to be Axis. They just carried this principal into the Pacific when he joined the BPF.
I can't remember where I read it but the reports by the occupation forces about the number of attack aircraft Japan had in reserve for the invasion are staggering. Jets and rockets would presumably have been included by the time of the actual invasion.
-N8
Quote from: madcatter on April 05, 2011, 11:57:39 AM
I can't remember where I read it but the reports by the occupation forces about the number of attack aircraft Japan had in reserve for the invasion are staggering. Jets and rockets would presumably have been included by the time of the actual invasion.
-N8
Airplanes without fuel are just expensive lawn art.
Japanese late war aviation plans were just like German late war aviation plans, a lot of wishful thinking.
Very true but they didn't throw everything they had at Okinawa. They knew an invasion was coming and they held a lot back in preparation for it. Would it have made a difference? Not really, defeat was inevitable. That's not to say they didn't have some nasty surprises waiting.
For example, the Me-163 was far from a success and the cost of the program itself far outweighed it's few victories. On the other hand, news of these 'unstoppable' rocket interceptors scared the hell out the bomber crews. No one in the allied camp knew how wasteful or dangerous the Komet was to the Germans. All they knew was they were helpless to defeat them and swarms of them attacking a single allied raid would be devastating. Hindsight tells us otherwise. But at the time, it was a very different story indeed.
-N8
According to the book I'm presently reading on Operation DOWNFALL the Allies estimated that the Japanese had ~2500+ aircraft available to them in August 1945. The Japanese themselves estimated that they had in fact ~3000+ aircraft. This was with sufficient fuel for at least a week's operation at an unknown sortie rate.
The USN and US Army were having a long running debate over aircraft estimates, both were wildly short of the mark, with 2500 being the upper limit of their estimates. Many of the Japanese aircraft (about half) were trainers of various types but all could carry at least a 250lb bomb or more. Saturation attacks were likely. Far from being lawn ornaments they were likely to inflict serious damage on the invasion fleet if DOWNFALL or CORONET had gone ahead. Interception would have been difficult with detection very hard, particularly the closer the fleet operated to the Japanese islands, which would have masked attackers from radar and made visual identification difficult. One advantage the small trainers had was that they could operate from improvised airstrips such as roads, near to the invasion beaches. The Japanese planned and actually did disperse them all over Kyushu and Honshu.
IMHO, orange or red markings would probably NOT have been used in Operation Downfall. Red was taken out of *ALL* Allied markings early in the war BECAUSE Japanese markings had red in them (not only Hinomarus, but other aircraft decoration), and the Japanese identifying leading-edge wing bars were orange/yellow, too. I think the idea was that if you saw ANY red---SHOOT AT IT! The brief flirtation with the red outline to the star-and-bar in the summer of 1943 was just that---BRIEF. I would think that Allied aircraft would shy away from ANY yellow, orange, or red for those reasons alone.
I would vote for black and white.
Quote from: comrade harps on April 04, 2011, 08:43:34 PM
I chose orange and yellow simpley because I was looking for an excuse to use orange paint and I wanted something bright. The story came about as a way to explain an application of orange.
... that Idea with high contrast in mind is making me think Black and Orange stripes :wacko: ... A variation on your candy corn/ halloween theme, comrade.
:cheers:
QuoteIMHO, orange or red markings would probably NOT have been used in Operation Downfall. Red was taken out of *ALL* Allied markings early in the war BECAUSE Japanese markings had red in them (not only Hinomarus, but other aircraft decoration), and the Japanese identifying leading-edge wing bars were orange/yellow, too. I think the idea was that if you saw ANY red---SHOOT AT IT! The brief flirtation with the red outline to the star-and-bar in the summer of 1943 was just that---BRIEF. I would think that Allied aircraft would shy away from ANY yellow, orange, or red for those reasons alone.
Not quite. There are plenty of examples where colours used by the Japanese were not totally eliminated - and indeed, some where they were boldly adopted.
The Netherlands East Indies replaced their orange triangle neutrality markings in 1942 with a red, white and blue markings, keeping it until the end of the war -they were no longer neutral:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi142.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr106%2Fwhatifgh%2FDutchMitchell.jpg&hash=77b1f888260d4f34e46eb3ecdfa038759990a787)
When the Mexicans went to war against the Japanese over the Philipines, they used a combo of USAAF star and bars and red, white and green Mexican national markings. Note also the yellow outline on the black ID stripes:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi142.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr106%2Fwhatifgh%2FMexicanThunderbolt.jpg&hash=e17cfa117ebf21e9a4e3a7ef7d548464d701a8c1)
Also, even though the RNZAF eliminated red from their roundels and opted for a rather attractive blue and white circle with bars affair, this featured a thin yellow outline - they also used a slim red, white and blue fin flash. The first example even has a yellow nose ring and the second a yellow number on the tail:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi142.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr106%2Fwhatifgh%2FRNZAFCorsair.png&hash=df9efb4108ab797ed2ae24b677cee59ee4113253)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi142.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr106%2Fwhatifgh%2FRNZAFCorsair2.jpg&hash=46428598cf6b996a2043eb583253a95808177a9b)
The USAAF's 343rd Fighter Group used lots of yellow on their P-40 in the Aleutians fighting the Japanese.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi142.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fr106%2Fwhatifgh%2FP-40Ewithyellow.jpg&hash=b4e541b2dccbe0bdfe02167b58b9c1bfa41d3a4c)
To take the idea of removing anything colour that the Japanese used would have meant removing white from Allied planes, as there was often a white ring around the Hinomaru (or white square or band for 1944-45 home defence planes) and white unit markings, but obviously this was not done - indeed, more white was often added, such as the American white bars, SEAC's white stripes and the RAAF's white tails.
As for the Japanese used of orange, they applied orange overall on their trainers and prototypes, but during 1944 added green camo to the upper and side surfaces. I will speculate that in a Downfall what if universe where air superiority had been lost over the home islands and where all trainers had become kamikaze platforms, that even the orange undersides would have been removed.
That Mitchell or a similar profile was proof of the old adage "you are never to old to learn" for me. I'd never ever seen those national markings until a few months ago when I saw a Dutch Decals sheet. If I'd have seen it prior to that then I would have said "oh no not WWII but just after in the Dutch East Indies"
As for "orange" on Japanese trainers. Might have been useful for sunrise/sunset kamikaze attacks ?
Chris
>Not Quite. There are plenty of examples where colours [red and orange] used by the Japanese were not totally eliminated [on Allied aircraft] - and indeed, some where they were boldly adopted.<
Not quite. Those aircraft you mentioned were in the BACKWATER areas and NOT the forefront of combat. During an invasion on the scale of Downfall, the K.I.S.S. principle would be imperative. If I were Mac (or whomever was slated to be overall commander) I would insist on deleting all red or orange for simplicity's sake.
>As for "orange" on Japanese trainers. Might have been useful for sunrise/sunset kamikaze attacks ?<
Quite so. Supposedly many "Rufe"s (Zero floatplane fighters) sported an overall light purple/magenta for such purposes. My crackpot mind will, of course, take this to ridiculous lengths when my "Suisei-Kai" whif comes out (down the list a ways) in "Brilliant Sunset" camo where the Hinomaru is the dullest thing on the wing.
Point taken about backwaters. I was just qualifiying an absolute statement about "ALL" and "ANY".
As for the sunrise/sunset camo, I wasn't aware of that and it raises some fun ideas for pink or lavender nosejobs and on the wing leading edges of kamikaze planes. :wub:
In reality, I reckon you'd pretty much stick with black and white D-Day stripes, or big black stripes on NMF planes as the 5th Air Force used and white stripes on USN dark blue planes.
As to the kind of aerial defence that Japanese could still put up by X-Day, that's another matter. Yes, they may have had up to 4,000 planes ready for one last throw of the dice ready in August 1945, but by the time of any invasion this may well have been depleted by airfield bombing, a lack of fuel and a proposed naval feint to absorb the divine wind before the invasion.