I have to admit I don't really know what the SR41 would have looked like, as the Internet and my books didn't really help.
But Wikipedia very helpfully lists the Air Ministry Specifications which gave me this;
R.14/40 OR.91 Very long range reconnaissance flying boat - Centaurus-engined Sunderland replacement
for which there were two competing designs, the Saunders-Roe S.41 and the Short Shetland.
I suspect the actual OR.91 was probably a bit more detailed than just what's written above, but I think that's vague enough for me to go on.
The Air Ministry apparently told Shorts and Saunders Roe to join forces and build the Shetland (A Flying Boat only it's mother could love)
So what if Saunders-Roe had been allowed to build their Flying Boat?
Well.....
I've got one of these,
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi980.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae284%2FTourjet%2Fac5e87d78a0925ab17b8f1df6eba6f1b.jpg&hash=4c2714c1e3f51d0cc5574c31dd131e8cf30f327a)
And these plans...
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi980.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae284%2FTourjet%2F66985caa90c4ae17b1316be7571ec39d.jpg&hash=0f2f7ee7a23b0f0b04df5182b518bcb926811693)
Which with a bit of cutting and pasting gave me a crude looking plan, which should at least give you a clue as to what I'm aiming for.A sort of Smaller Princess, one might even say the predecessor to the SR45 Princess.
Quite possibly the most beautiful Flying Boat ever built. :wub:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi980.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae284%2FTourjet%2Fad56fcf7435841898617eef97d7cfa54.jpg&hash=655656d23c04a657b05a30e82801b6726fb784b5)
Comments, critics, ideas etc, all gratefully received
Regards
Keith
This looks very promising. Great idea!
David
Great idea. Go for it.
Some data I gleaned from Ken Delve's book on "Short Sunderland" on possible developments-----6 engines, twin tail etc------here, together with colleagues comments:-
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,36799.msg593140.html#msg593140 (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,36799.msg593140.html#msg593140)
That looks rather graceful. Bit like the missing link which led to the Princess... :thumbsup:
Nice project, as missing link... :thumbsup:
Excellent. The curved planking on the bottom of the hull can be tough. More smaller pieces instead of several large pieces can help get the shape correct.
I have found laying one piece down the middle on the bottom of the hull to serve as the bottom of the keel helps a lot. Allows you to but the hull planks to the keel.
Here is my SeaVictor showing the main keel piece fitted and some frames cut.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1193.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa360%2Fsandiego89%2Fsv4_zpsa649daa1.jpg&hash=b81e3f45903b35cdf27cbc3ccd17c90dbe3b8884)
And some of the frames mated up to the keel piece.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1193.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa360%2Fsandiego89%2Fsv5.jpg&hash=87efe86c8657082b37f063e727f0b47b4634ff80)
Hope this helps. I like your boat!
Interesting project, here is the S.41 profile drawing from Saunders and Saro Aircraft Since 1917,
and a photo of the reverse cooling-flow Centaurus test rig.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2FS41_01.png&hash=e24e0fd05b89ed28648320bcb627513bf69f518f)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2FCENTAURUS_REVERSE_FLOW_01.png&hash=97757a9137533e55078da5bdad7ca6a486ae9211)
Now that is interesting Jon, I can see some possiblities with that design --- :smiley:
potentially beautiful!
I actually really like the look of the Shetland. Not a patch on the Princess, obviously, but still handsome IMO.
This looks very much like it could be a relative of the Princess, which can only be a good thing. :thumbsup:
Whyis it everytime you mention "Flying boats" I picture...
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi189.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz102%2Fliverite102%2FAflyingboat_zps3676ecdf.jpg&hash=7ccdbfd4b3b52e779301b0f388da4eb207ebca8f)
Quote from: pyro-manic on March 23, 2013, 12:07:02 PM
I actually really like the look of the Shetland. Not a patch on the Princess, obviously, but still handsome IMO.
I concur with the above opinion, I quite like the Shetland.
Your SR41 scheme looks a blast, relly looking forward to seeing the finished article. It surely looks better than SARO's own SR41 proposal!
Quote from: Go4fun on March 23, 2013, 12:57:33 PM
Whyis it everytime you mention "Flying boats" I picture...
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi189.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz102%2Fliverite102%2FAflyingboat_zps961469e3.jpg&hash=5e3640acb79db124d83a1e37ec937069e308de5e)
You're not as far off the mark as you think - a small company in America actually build something like this, IIRC it 'flies' so low that it still counts as a boat, and therefore does not require a pilots licencse!
Interesting project
How does the reverse flow cooling system work on that Centaurus?
Thanks for all the encouraging comments everybody,
And special thanks to Jon for showing what the S.41 would have looked like :thumbsup:
Pugnacious looking Aircraft, and the designer obviously took the "heavy defensive armament" bit of the
Spec very seriously ;D
And those reverse cooling flow Centaurus just look plain odd to me!
Still it's all food for thought for my S.41.
I definitely want to do something to the engines to make them look less like P+W Wasps,
Maybe removing the large intake from underneath, and giving them a Sea Fury type Centaurus
Exhaust.
Other things on the to do list; well there's the wings, they've obviously got to go up and I want to try
And make them less B29/50 like. Then there's the "Heavy defensive armament" hmmm...
I suppose I could use remote turrets (like the B29) on the fuselage with Barbettes for the sides and remotely sighted rear cannon in the tail.
Camouflage? As its a late war design, maybe for use in the Pacific as part of Tiger force? Was there a special
Tiger Force Camouflage scheme for flying boats?
On the other hand I could say it was produced too late to take part in the War, remove all the Armament and convert it to a troop/cargo carrier, it would look quite smart in RAF Transport Command white/Grey with the Blue Cheatline
What do you think?
Regards
Keith
Woah....what an awesome idea ! Look forward to seeing this one progress. Seems simple enough ! Well, on paper anyway..... :thumbsup:
Quote from: rickshaw on March 24, 2013, 06:33:31 AM
How does the reverse flow cooling system work on that Centaurus?
At a rough guess I would say that the Air enters via the wing intake, and is then ducted forward over the top half of the engine, till it reaches the front of the cowling it's then directed down and rearwards over the bottom half of the engine and exits underneath alongside the engines exhausts.
Regards
Keith
Hah - great minds and all that: I had the idea to mate a Stratocruiser with a Clipper to make a "Stratoclipper" much along the same lines as your project but civilian. My donor kits are 1/144th, Minicraft and Airfix respectively.
I have the same rpoblem in working out hoeto do the wings. They can't just pass through the top of the hull like they do on the Clipper because the Stratocruiser is pressurised, so as far as I can see, they have to go above it in a scratchbuilt hump. Scratchbuilding that hump and getting it straight gives me pause for thought though....
Quote from: Weaver on March 24, 2013, 07:36:25 AM
Hah - great minds and all that: I had the idea to mate a Stratocruiser with a Clipper to make a "Stratoclipper" much along the same lines as your project but civilian. My donor kits are 1/144th, Minicraft and Airfix respectively.
I have the same rpoblem in working out hoeto do the wings. They can't just pass through the top of the hull like they do on the Clipper because the Stratocruiser is pressurised, so as far as I can see, they have to go above it in a scratchbuilt hump. Scratchbuilding that hump and getting it straight gives me pause for thought though....
Well actually on most modern airliners the wings pass straight through the pressurized area of the fuselage,
Except of course the front and rear spars then form a pressure bulkhead, and the area in between is used to stow
Stuff like the Undercarriage, hydraulic reservoirs etc, which doesn't need to be in the pressurized area.
The B737 is a good example. So you could just attach the wings either side at the top of the fuselage, and not worry about scratch building the hump. Although you'll still have to get them on straight :lol:
Regards
Keith
Quote from: TallEng on March 24, 2013, 07:05:49 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on March 24, 2013, 06:33:31 AM
How does the reverse flow cooling system work on that Centaurus?
At a rough guess I would say that the Air enters via the wing intake, and is then ducted forward over the top half of the engine, till it reaches the front of the cowling it's then directed down and rearwards over the bottom half of the engine and exits underneath alongside the engines exhausts.
Regards
Keith
Yep, pretty much like the Gipsy Twelve/Gipsy King on the DH Albatross and Don.
Futz with the cente section of the wing and make it parallel chord,
like the XPBB-1 Lone Ranger?
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2F344_01.png&hash=cfe5670bc6126451d5cb43f3316d5116ff4e7632)
Quote from: TallEng on March 24, 2013, 08:39:50 AM
Quote from: Weaver on March 24, 2013, 07:36:25 AM
Hah - great minds and all that: I had the idea to mate a Stratocruiser with a Clipper to make a "Stratoclipper" much along the same lines as your project but civilian. My donor kits are 1/144th, Minicraft and Airfix respectively.
I have the same rpoblem in working out hoeto do the wings. They can't just pass through the top of the hull like they do on the Clipper because the Stratocruiser is pressurised, so as far as I can see, they have to go above it in a scratchbuilt hump. Scratchbuilding that hump and getting it straight gives me pause for thought though....
Well actually on most modern airliners the wings pass straight through the pressurized area of the fuselage,
Except of course the front and rear spars then form a pressure bulkhead, and the area in between is used to stow
Stuff like the Undercarriage, hydraulic reservoirs etc, which doesn't need to be in the pressurized area.
The B737 is a good example. So you could just attach the wings either side at the top of the fuselage, and not worry about scratch building the hump. Although you'll still have to get them on straight :lol:
Regards
Keith
Thing is though, the wings on modern airliners pass through the fuselage below the floor level, so the cabin is uninterrupted. With a high-mounted wing, you'd either have to accept a low-ceiling section amidships or have an awkward up-down-up pressure cabin.
Don't use the Sea Fury installation. I'd go with the Brigand instead as it's more right for a multi engined aircraft. Spare cowlings are in the Valom Buckingham and Buckmaster, although you'd have to get the actual engine from elsewhere.
Five blade or six blade contraprops would look especially cool, the latter being very useful for their braking effect - Winkle Brown was most impressed with that facility on the Seafire 46/47.
Camo? Med sea grey tops, white everywhere else like the late Sunderlands in the 50s. Given the amount of conversion work you're doing, I wouldn't use an NMF finish. It'll show up the tiniest flaw.
Update :thumbsup:
A masking tape mock up Of the forward section of the hull of a flying boat.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi980.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae284%2FTourjet%2Fd81c159f8161b31306a73db567bef5aa.jpg&hash=eb5c6d0c0f4e8d89619af5d7fc1588051978b37e)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi980.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae284%2FTourjet%2F689e4b6a69e4d19dc2c1e5dc20a8e332.jpg&hash=1d7bbfdf60343aa29984dbf2125fff2c74aff5e7)
Underneath the masking tape are plastikard frames, the masking tape was more a does/will this look right
When I'm finished. So far I think it's looking good. Also seen in the pictures is the Warpaint monograph on the Bristol Brigand, that's because the Wooksta suggested using the engines from a Brigand/Buckmaster kit.
Well sadly I don't have a Brigand/Buckmaster kit in my stash, but with the help of the Warpaint Monograph
I feel I shall be able to modify the kit engines into something resembling a Centaurus suitable for a Seaplane.
The next problem will be the wings and Engine Nacelles :unsure:
Regards
Keith
TallEng,
Nice choice of base kit there! The Strato's "double bubble" pressure cabin fuselage lends itself well to a seaplane hull form.
Have you seen the AEW C-97 in Battleflight ?, as it might be an idea to match that and relocate the cockpit to a buldge atop the fuselage and blend in the original cockpit to the fuselage.
Quote from: Thorvic on March 30, 2013, 02:19:45 AM
Have you seen the AEW C-97 in Battleflight ?, as it might be an idea to match that and relocate the cockpit to a buldge atop the fuselage and blend in the original cockpit to the fuselage.
Sadly I have seen the AEW C-97 in Battleflight, and imediately cursed my lack of forethought in
Not obtaining a second C-97 :banghead:
I presume you are suggesting moving the cockpit to on top of the fuselage to allow room for a nose turret?
Regards
Keith