What if

I pre-ordered the following kit from my local hobby store. It should be released this month (I hope.). I just had the crazy idea this morning of possibly putting that turret on top of a large tank chassis and making some sort of 3-gunned US Navy tank.  :o
I suppose it wouldn't be that crazy. I mean, look what the Germans were planning with the Landkreuzer P1000 Ratte. If the Germans can have their P1000 Ratte, then the Americans can have something similar, right?
So anybody have any other thoughts and suggestions on how I could modify this turret? What type of tank chassis to use? What size? Paint colors and decal choices to use? Etc., etc., etc.

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgLYiCaSd89LIpTjgqVoOUI7DPIeVrb9UodRNcjQ2-VoLpiZ_73ZiO3lN64sDkvk12RN2Ciz5qWVJ9Z7kYQDFU9vUs9z0-rfI0okYQ_7SUGjCImPQ-x7YfsLuRyKem-hWr3BWPTHmMyjz2y4vr9G-SgC7q2TdDYL7p-mSrso84mH2Tm-0MQLb2J7s6y5A=s16000)

For the name of the US version you could use Katze (Ger: cat) or Terrier (they both hunt rats (Ratte)).

I have no idea of the size of that turret in 1/72 but a quick (& possibly erroneous) calculation indicates a width of about 7.17", which is about the same as the length of a 1/35 MBT (Merkava, Challenger, Abrams).

1/72 scale tanks aren't going to cut it! :o

Unless you use multiples, say 4 x M26 Pershings minus turrets, which would be replaced with a "hull" for mounting the gun, but even that may not be big enough.

You may need to go to 1/48 scale M26's or even up to 1/35, where smaller tanks, like the M24 Chaffee, may suffice, but you're definitely going to need at least 3 tanks, although 4 is more likely.

Colours & decals will depend on which service is manning it. Army? Navy?

Army: overall OD with typical unit markings for an armoured division in (Patton's) Third Army.
Navy: battleship grey or disruptive pattern with hull numbers & name across the stern.

Using the Ratte as a size guide, if it's the same size as a 1/35 tank then you'll need a hull around twice the size   A 1/16 tank should work, which could turn out pricey, but I believe Hobby Boss do a (relatively) cheap Tiger & T-34.

Quote from: Old Wombat on January 01, 2022, 09:43:44 AM
For the name of the US version you could use Katze (Ger: cat) or Terrier (they both hunt rats (Ratte)).
I don't like the sound of that. I don't want to use any German sounding names.
I have no idea of the size of that turret in 1/72 but a quick (& possibly erroneous) calculation indicates a width of about 7.17", which is about the same as the length of a 1/35 MBT (Merkava, Challenger, Abrams).
The Missouri turret is 403 mm long. That's almost 16" inches from barrel tip to the back of the turret. I'm thinking that the turret housing and the barrels will be about 50/50. 7-8" length for one, and about 7-8" inches length for the other. I'm guessing at least a 1/35 scale tank chassis is going to be needed. I've got three 1/35 scale Dragon T28 Super Heavy Tank kits at home to rob parts from.
1/72 scale tanks aren't going to cut it! :o

Unless you use multiples, say 4 x M26 Pershings minus turrets, which would be replaced with a "hull" for mounting the gun, but even that may not be big enough.

You may need to go to 1/48 scale M26's or even up to 1/35, where smaller tanks, like the M24 Chaffee, may suffice, but you're definitely going to need at least 3 tanks, although 4 is more likely.

Colours & decals will depend on which service is manning it. Army? Navy?
Possibly Marine Corps instead.
Army: overall OD with typical unit markings for an armoured division in (Patton's) Third Army.
Navy: battleship grey or disruptive pattern with hull numbers & name across the stern.

The other thing to consider is whether to have (and how much) anti-aircraft or other smaller defensive armament on the tank? The P1000 has smaller armament on it. Mine should eventually too. Shapeways doesn't have much for 1/72 scale accessories to add to the turret. The other stuff I'll take off the turret are the life rafts and the floater net baskets as I don't need those. As an afterthought, kinda strange how I haven't seen anybody take the large 18" Yamato turret kit that TAKOM also made and convert that into a what if Japanese tank just like the German P1000 Ratte? Anyway, if I build my tank, I could put it in service at either blowing up Japanese defenses at Okinawa or maybe the German defenses on D-Day, or maybe the Battle of the Bulge?

https://blackcatmodels.eu/en/172/283-40mm-bofors-quad-gun.html?fbclid=IwAR1w0dBdI-_O30zCQ8RtYgka9XpY-ArxBL8gSRZPaI_2EXSuwHCwOeapLdc
https://www.shapeways.com/product/4UBVH4R8J/1-72-usn-stern-main-turret-40mm-gun-tub?optionId=236874112&li=marketplace
https://www.shapeways.com/product/JJS53K6N9/bofors-gun-tub-ammo-set-1-72?optionId=59488595&li=marketplace
https://www.shapeways.com/product/ZUF9NNQFB/1-72-mk51-w-o-mk14-gunsight?optionId=60301124&li=marketplace
https://www.shapeways.com/product/YFJ7TUU6E/1-72-usn-mk-51-director?optionId=59481347&li=marketplace
https://www.shapeways.com/product/96UZZ52MN/quad-bofors-shielded-kit-1-72?optionId=59097725&li=marketplace

I think i've mentioned it before. But when my 72nd Ratte was on the bench. I took it to the local club one evening. We sat it alongside a recently finished 1/16 scale T34. They took up the same amount of table top space.
Now the Ratte was to have 11In guns....so for a 16in triple. You would likely need a 1/16 IS2 or king Tiger sized hull.

You people saw this, right?

(https://i.redd.it/6p9lezlivqj61.jpg)

First answer for Yamato turret vs Tiger on Chrome. Assuming there is intent to do full justice instead of Ratte closing under withering but "ineffective" fire and finish the job with two or three rounds shot per barrel, you are possibly looking at 4 or more tank hulls locked into some sort of a train formation with amazing engineering and similar things to carry the turret in between...

Hmm.. the whole huge turrets on tanks thing is... well.. interesting.

As a further comparison for size.
This is a 1/72 Flying off platform on HMAS Australia I did a zillion years ago. It had dual 12" guns. So probably add another third in size at least
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.modelblokez.org.au%2Fbthpix%2Fami%2Fstrutter.jpg&hash=d0c09a44692c9e5ce462abbac86fe027aa802829)

Whiff toy construction equipment ??

What about taking a hint from the drone flyers and put a tank hull at each corner of a large hull holding the ship turret. Trick might be steering the contraption.

Once again using this as a link dump for later reference...

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/german-tank-based-railway-guns for the masters of the genre struggling for the semi-impossible task, with the side info that a Tiger without armour comes at 25 tons... Which you will NOT need after hearing the "actual" target set for the Ratte.

https://m.imgur.com/5X4BQtb is a picture from the comments section at the link above a 182 ton self moving affair.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_gun is just a natural with https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Railway_gun being a new variant of the format for me to check. Last two arise from the think that US Army based its thing indeed on single barrel option with the 14/50 of the WW l era being the base idea.

If it's going to be in the service of the Marine Corp then should it be amphibious?

Why only one turret?  ;)

From Stan Mott's History of Tanks.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsbiii.com%2Fsmottpix%2Ftnkhist3.jpg&hash=f8f2d527ac41c2576729ea1d5df419d0367772e3)

Iowa class triple-mount turret weight:
1,701 - 1,708 tons (1,728.4 - 1,735.4 mt)

Not as impossible as

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/qkVED

or the 2700 ton weight of the Yamato turrets in fact.

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on January 03, 2022, 10:30:57 AM
Why only one turret?  ;)

From Stan Mott's History of Tanks.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsbiii.com%2Fsmottpix%2Ftnkhist3.jpg&hash=f8f2d527ac41c2576729ea1d5df419d0367772e3)

'Coz there's only so much styrene in the world! :o

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on January 03, 2022, 10:30:57 AM
Why only one turret?  ;)

From Stan Mott's History of Tanks.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsbiii.com%2Fsmottpix%2Ftnkhist3.jpg&hash=f8f2d527ac41c2576729ea1d5df419d0367772e3)

I wonder if it has the same problem as the Courbet - where the secondaries outrange the main armament.  :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

Quote from: scooter on January 03, 2022, 04:15:34 PM

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on January 03, 2022, 10:30:57 AM
Why only one turret?  ;)

From Stan Mott's History of Tanks.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsbiii.com%2Fsmottpix%2Ftnkhist3.jpg&hash=f8f2d527ac41c2576729ea1d5df419d0367772e3)

I wonder if it has the same problem as the Courbet - where the secondaries outrange the main armament.  :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

I just like the little 2CV poodling along it front of it  ;D

Quote from: NARSES2 on January 04, 2022, 05:49:25 AM

Quote from: scooter on January 03, 2022, 04:15:34 PM

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on January 03, 2022, 10:30:57 AM
Why only one turret?  ;)

From Stan Mott's History of Tanks.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsbiii.com%2Fsmottpix%2Ftnkhist3.jpg&hash=f8f2d527ac41c2576729ea1d5df419d0367772e3)

I wonder if it has the same problem as the Courbet - where the secondaries outrange the main armament.  :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

I just like the little 2CV poodling along it front of it  ;D

The chap with the red flag in front of them all is just out of shot on the left.

Puts me a little in mind of Mortal Engines... but more well-armed

Did someone call?  Had plenty of room for my turrets and ammo decks....

based on an 1930's magazine cover.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1196x897q90/923/mf0DR2.jpg)

This magazine cover? https://www.reddit.com/r/ImaginaryTechnology/comments/220l7f/land_fortressaircraft_carriertankbattleship/

It's definitely ugly enough to be a real French Battleship

I had an interesting time reading the wikipedia article on the Ratte. Specifically that the battleship turrets weighing an easy 750 but would fall down to 300 when fitted on the tank hull. Forget that . They might take the guns allright but it would probably be easier to produce a new twin turret. The claims that each Panzer division would get one as a flagship would support that. Only if they were not made up to cover the target set. Until 1945 or so, rushing the American efforts to that particular end. And Ratte's front armour is weak at 25 centimeters. Because through the little effort spent on research l know Guderian was busy in 1945 with a 170mm gun that could penetrate 200mm at 4000 meters range. Closing in for effect would be better if that 36cm on the turret front could be matched on the entire front.

Quote from: tigercat on January 05, 2022, 05:11:19 AM
It's definitely ugly enough to be a real French Battleship

Yeah, the Courbet, Bretagne, Dunkerque and Richelieu classes were real dogs.  :rolleyes:

(https://i.imgur.com/FVMMbIj.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/uoJpQAQ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/CIwdw0C.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Agq9kKE.jpg)

Quote from: Nick on January 05, 2022, 03:50:46 AM
This magazine cover? https://www.reddit.com/r/ImaginaryTechnology/comments/220l7f/land_fortressaircraft_carriertankbattleship/

That's the one Nick!  My inspiration. 

Used a 1/700 USS Arizona for the hull and turrets. Tracks were scratch, easter egg for the citadel and a travel-size shampoo bottle for the funnel!   

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on January 05, 2022, 02:00:01 PM

Quote from: tigercat on January 05, 2022, 05:11:19 AM
It's definitely ugly enough to be a real French Battleship

Yeah, the Courbet, Bretagne, Dunkerque and Richelieu classes were real dogs.  :rolleyes:

Perhaps not but Jaureguiberry, Charles Martel, Massena, Bouvet & even Suffren probably fit the bill. ;)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d5/French_battleship_Jaureguiberry_NH_88826_.jpg/1920px-French_battleship_Jaureguiberry_NH_88826_.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/CharlesMartelPostcardMariusBar.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bd/French_battleship_Massena_NH_74863.tif/lossless-page1-1280px-French_battleship_Massena_NH_74863.tif.png)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/French_battleship_Bouvet_at_anchor.jpg/800px-French_battleship_Bouvet_at_anchor.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Agence_Rol_-_23-10-11%2C_Toulon%2C_cuirass%C3%A9_Suffren.jpg)

Weird looking ship and really weird looking hull shape.

Quote from: Old Wombat on January 05, 2022, 04:30:45 PM

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on January 05, 2022, 02:00:01 PM

Quote from: tigercat on January 05, 2022, 05:11:19 AM
It's definitely ugly enough to be a real French Battleship

Yeah, the Courbet, Bretagne, Dunkerque and Richelieu classes were real dogs.  :rolleyes:

Perhaps not but Jaureguiberry, Charles Martel, Massena, Bouvet & even Suffren probably fit the bill. ;)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d5/French_battleship_Jaureguiberry_NH_88826_.jpg/1920px-French_battleship_Jaureguiberry_NH_88826_.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/CharlesMartelPostcardMariusBar.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bd/French_battleship_Massena_NH_74863.tif/lossless-page1-1280px-French_battleship_Massena_NH_74863.tif.png)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/French_battleship_Bouvet_at_anchor.jpg/800px-French_battleship_Bouvet_at_anchor.jpg)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Agence_Rol_-_23-10-11%2C_Toulon%2C_cuirass%C3%A9_Suffren.jpg)

When hotels go to war :wacko:

Quote from: kerick on January 05, 2022, 08:47:15 PM
Weird looking ship and really weird looking hull shape.

Drach did a video on French predreadnoughts, and the theories that went into their designs.  I linked somewhere in my Rum Ration topic

French Pre-Dreadnoughts - When Hotels go to War: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ygXLnRAm-A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ygXLnRAm-A) :thumbsup:

Anyway, getting back on track! ;)

As I said, seadude, the turret's width (which is slightly less than the length, excluding guns) is about 7¹/₄".

This gives you a turret ring of about 7" (this is all in model measurements) & that is not far short of the full length of a 1/35 MBT!!! :o

For stability & weight distribution over the ground something as big as this is going to need at least 8" across the outside of the tracks, maybe 8¹/₂" &, even with a long vehicle like the M103 & using both of your kits, that is going to leave you with a terrible length/width ratio for each set of tracks.

This is why I suggested 4 x 1/48 tanks (Churchills would be good but something like M24 Chaffees might do), each at a corner of the hull structure with a load-bearing pivot point above their centre of mass. This way each "tank" acts like a wheel, with the front two (even the rear two, if you want) able to turn & steer the mega-tank like the front wheels of a car.

I say all this because this is the best way I've thought of to build a mobile service & maintenance base for one of these;

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71uwIuv792L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)

In 1/20 it's big & I've gone for 2 x M41 Walker Bulldogs & 2 x M42 Dusters in 1/35 as my starting point (I have the kits, I just need to find time to do the work).

1/48 Churchill you say...
Would 1/56 be close enough?

https://us.airfix.com/products/churchill-infantry-tank-156-wwii-military-wargaming-plastic-model-kit-402011002

- but there are a lot of other types available too, as it's the chosen scale for the Italeri & Bolt Action wargaming minis.

HTH

Probably a bit small. However, looking at available 1/48 tanks .... Lots of Shermans, T-34s, Tigers & Panthers, with only a smattering of other WW2-ish types.

There are Matildas! :thumbsup:

Or, for a more modern look, there are M1 Abrams', Challengers & Leo 2s available (maybe, if you're lucky).

Quote from: Old Wombat on January 05, 2022, 10:21:17 PM
French Pre-Dreadnoughts - When Hotels go to War: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ygXLnRAm-A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ygXLnRAm-A) :thumbsup:

Thanks Wombie :thumbsup:

This is a very interesting idea and i like it.
For a vehicle like what you want to build and if you want to have some realism to it dont use the T28s ..you'll go mad building all the suspension units  ;)
One of Guys suggestions is the way to go..M1 Abrams..Leo2 .
For the realism part and with a turret lenght of over 400 mm and the massive recoil these guns have you'll need a chassis twice that lenght ..so 4 Lèo 2s ..i say Leo 2s cause there cheap to buy and revells are a great start.
Im am specking from experience here as i have built a 4 tracked tank model and its on here in the armoured section.
I used super cheap trumpeter T 55s and 2 tamiya T 62s and a absolute crap load of sheat styrene..it was a big build and this thing was 4 times the size of a 35th King Tiger.
So back to the build  ;D
I really like Guys idea of all 4 tanks being able to turn as steering this thing would be a nightmare other wise.
Hydraulic stabilizers would be needed to support the guns when fired..remember when these guns fired on the ship you couldnt be on the deck dew to thr blast pressures ..your tank would have to consider this sort of thing also..when a battleship fired a all gun broad side the entire ship moved side ways form the blast.
If your tank fired all 3 guns at once it would smash anything near it and destory your chassis's suspension and possiblely twist their frames too.
You also need to make this thing pretty damn high as the turret does not carry any ammo or powder charges so youll need away to carry that to.
So you need a base which the 4 tank hulls connect too..this would also carry the turret so it will need to be super strong .
As for air defences your pretty good there..M16 quad .50 turrets..20mm AA guns and Bofors guns..or hell even a Duster turret with twin 40mm guns .
This will be a bloody big model and i like it  ;D
:thumbsup: