What if

So what's it gonna be? I have a few ideas for alternative COIN birds (and armor for that matter)...

it sounds really cool, i dont have much COIN aircraft (or none at all) i would indeed like to enter this competition.  ^_^  

It looks like I'll have do a heavily modernized COIN/interdictor P-61 (aka AF-61K)!   B)

:cheers: Bryan

Seeing as I've never really thought about COIN aircraft before, I may have to think on this one  

How about COIN SLOT aircraft? :lol:  

QuoteHow about COIN SLOT aircraft? :lol:

Only you could think of that Rad ;)  ;)  ;)  

QuoteSo what's it gonna be? I have a few ideas for alternative COIN birds (and armor for that matter)...

COIN armor?  Tell me more.

I was thinking about that as well - and I came up with some ideas for muti-turret designs with a cental turret with a close support gun and multiple mg turrets. As you come nearer modern times maybe the mg's are Gatling type weapons ? Like an updated T28 type of thing.

Alternatively go down the origional COIN armour route - tankettes. After all the Italian ones were designed with bush wars in mind. So you could have small 1 or 2 man vehicles with gatling type guns and grenade launchers ?

Chris

Self descriptive really..... anything that rolls, sails or flies that is/was usually used as a school room but would also look really neat in a more aggressive role. Here's a few f'r'instances:-

Flying things
Tucanno, Tuccanno,Tuccano,
Hawk
Albatros L-39
Piston Provost
One of those Revell 1:32 Gliders

Rolling stuff
erm..... not sure.... can I get back to you on that

Waterborne
How about a couple of 20mm on the REVELL Harbour Tug.... OK it's stretching a point but I'm trying really hard to be inclusive here.

As you can see, this really (another) aviation themed Group Build idea. I'd be happy to 'mod' with somebody else (Nev, I'm looking at you !) it if it ever 'took-off' (pun intended). So over to you guys, let's read your thoughts and ideas..... it wont get onto the calender until 2009 at the earlies so lots and lots of time.

Ian

I think I'd like to join in on this one, I've a Mentor, PC-9, Tucano or a Jet Provost I could do, but what about a TF-104 or something in this genere, two seat CF-5B?, is that allowed?

Robert

If this GB is open to all eras, I've got a Stearman and a Ryan PT-20 in the stash that could be built for this one.

Here's some more aircraft ideas:

Bleriot XI
Taube
Curtiss Jenny
DeHavilland Tiger Moth
Miles Master
Me-108 Taifun
AT-6 Texan
Piper Cub
Beech C-45 Expeditor

Brian da Basher

Since I started that other thread, I better hop on the bandwagon.

Just not sure I can wait till next year before arming the 'munk.

Ian, I am pleased to see that you took my suggestion to heart before I had to resort to the rubber chicken, duct tape, and vice grips. 

This Trainers With Teeth thing is an excellent idea and if you broaden your horizons, you could also include those large jet aircraft like the T-43 and others that perform training missions.  Even the C-47 with the F-104 Starfighter radar nose would qualify if you add missiles to it. 

Here is the link to the origial thread in the general discussion forum: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,20082.msg285552.html#new (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,20082.msg285552.html#new)

Quote from: kitnut617 on June 04, 2008, 01:04:11 PM
I think I'd like to join in on this one, I've a Mentor, PC-9, Tucano or a Jet Provost I could do, but what about a TF-104 or something in this genere, two seat CF-5B?, is that allowed?

Load Brimstone missiles on the jets? 

Quote from: Brian da Basher on June 04, 2008, 01:27:25 PM
If this GB is open to all eras, I've got a Stearman and a Ryan PT-20 in the stash that could be built for this one.
Brian da Basher

Of course Mr. Basher...... welcomed with open arms......

Ratty......  non taken  :wub:

Ian

And something that evolved from a trainer to be an attack plane, for instance Hawk -----> Hawk-200 ?

I am particularly interested in the same evolution from an AlphaJet.
:party:

if i had a good canopy, i would scratchbuild an armed version of my SABCA ST-1A (see junkyard GB)

alfajets and SF260 have combat versions to (see portugese single-seat Ajets).
maybe armed airfix Piper Arrows or SA Bulldogs  :thumbsup:

It's kind of the upper end of arming trainers, but this was posted to Starship Modeler a few years back.

http://www.starshipmodeler.org/gallery7/rd_strikegator.htm

To properly qualify for the build, you'd have to call it an "AT-43", but you get the idea.

Quote from: Ian the Hunter-Gatherer on June 04, 2008, 11:46:39 AM

As you can see, this really (another) aviation themed Group Build idea. I'd be happy to 'mod' with somebody else (JHM, I'm looking at you !) it if it ever 'took-off' (pun intended). So over to you guys, let's read your thoughts and ideas..... it wont get onto the calender until 2009 at the earlies so lots and lots of time.

Ian

Fixed that for you mate ;)

I'd be very interested in this one.  Since I've taught in Dash 8 and 737 sims are they open for entry?   ;D

If not I guess I'll have to do my RAF Britnam Strikemaster...or an AT-45...or a Cessna 172 with machine guns for after the asteroid hits and civilization collapses...

Renault Clio with L-plates and a pintle GPMG out the sunroof? ;D

Quote from: pyro-manic on June 12, 2008, 02:31:08 PM
Renault Clio with L-plates and a pintle GPMG out the sunroof? ;D

Honda CG-125 with L-plates and a bazooka each side?  ;D ;D

Just a GPMG?  I'd say go all out with a Vulcan mount!!   :thumbsup:

Quote from: pyro-manic on June 12, 2008, 02:31:08 PM
Renault Clio with L-plates and a pintle GPMG out the sunroof? ;D

Don't forget the "Student Driver" placards.

Quote from: philp on June 12, 2008, 11:12:08 PM

Quote from: pyro-manic on June 12, 2008, 02:31:08 PM
Renault Clio with L-plates and a pintle GPMG out the sunroof? ;D

Don't forget the "Student Driver" placards.

You mean 'L' plates ???

In the US, we spell it out for the other drivers.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.funnydump.com%2Ffiles%2F9F8CmMR3.jpg&hash=42b5d8d0ae64ab3dbf500234977ccdc2e977a1a1)

I assume an L plate is similar.

Not so much a trainer, but not far off being one:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FCAC23%2FAU-24Sparrow.jpg&hash=a38304c49c513782db57a397e30e7d32ce36141b)

Those are AIM-7 Sparrow missiles!  Whenever one thinks some of our creations look outlandish, just remember the real world is sometimes even weirder! :blink:

Regards,

Greg

IIRC Sparrow needs a radar equiped aircraft. Am I right?, where is it?

Wasn't there a proposal to hang Sparrows off a Kaman Seasprite as an anti-FPB weapon? Could it be related to that? It's been said that a Sea Skua is basically a slow Sparrow........

Quote from: Weaver on June 16, 2008, 06:08:20 PM
Wasn't there a proposal to hang Sparrows off a Kaman Seasprite as an anti-FPB weapon? Could it be related to that? It's been said that a Sea Skua is basically a slow Sparrow........

That would be this:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2Fscan-1.jpg&hash=f92213dafa836d8f5766afe89ee44a4a10794ed9)

Regards,

Greg

Ah, cheers - knew I wasn't dreaming!

That Seasprite would appear to have a modified radar though, so it still begs the question of what they were plannig to do with the Sparrows on the Stallion.....  :huh:

I've just been on the ATF forum where there is a thread going about Airfix' forgotten prop jobs and shows a list of model aircraft not very often seen or talked about.  One of the subjects is the Beagle Basset.  I remember making this kit back in the 70's and I had added a pair of Harrier rocket pods to it and it was camoflaged, I think I'll do this again for this GB and see if I make a better job of it this time around.

This is a killer Group Build idea and it seems there's more than enough interest to get it off the ground. Has anybody sent Comrade Anthony a request to add it to the next GB Poll?

I'm sooooo up for this one!!!
:cheers:
Brian da Basher

I've got an Airfix 1/48 kit in the stash & I've been thinking for sometime about modding it up as Jaguar alternative, for instance if the Jag was cancelled at a late-ish stage.  Take the Hawk (which was coming on line around the same time), stick a delta on it to make it supersonic & to give it a greater range & weapons carrying ability.  Also pop a beefier engine in the rear, say a RB.199 (simply because there's a dead Tonka in the spares bin).  Of course, there'd be a T.2 version like the Jag, so it'd come full circle....

I sent Comrade Anthony a note about this GB idea and he felt it was still a little new to be added to the Fall GB Poll unless we see a huge uptick in interest. Apparently there are a bunch of GB ideas still in queue ahead of this one.

I'm hoping those interested in seeing the Trainers with Teeth GB take flight will make their interest known. Regardless, there have been some great ideas kicked around here so keep 'em coming!
:cheers:
Brian da Basher

Speaking of trainers with teeth, what about these EMB-314 whiffs:

Sri Lanka:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FCAC23%2F314sri.jpg&hash=d26d418ac057d0f04245dc4763fd182163623d40)

Singapore:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FCAC23%2F314sing.jpg&hash=e3b21bffe01c801eb77ad0a7b1f29076daafeed7)

Angola:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FCAC23%2F314ango.jpg&hash=0de7db9da6834aea6439b9b4f060da1f05203f87)

The Philippines:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FCAC23%2F314phil.jpg&hash=cf08f47d5dcc234620aba967b8ae0fe049a0324c)

BTW, for anyone still not clear, the following gives a good comparison between the EMB-314 and its smaller sibling, the EMB-312 or Tucano:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FCAC23%2F314312comp.jpg&hash=6fa9aa6a497a3a69dc24bb80dcab142f577d2de2)

Regards,

Greg

Anyone make a kit in 72nd? :wub:

I show 17 different posters in this thread so far.  Not sure how many are needed to get "on the list".
We do have a large list of GB ideas out there and I would really like to see the LSR GB get going so I can build that kit.

My 'munk probably won't wait for a future GB.

Quote from: philp on June 19, 2008, 08:56:23 AM
Anyone make a kit in 72nd? :wub:

Apparently yes!  apologies for the link length

http://209.85.171.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal6/5201-5300/gal5221_AT-29_Bonilla/00.shtm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DEMB-314%2B1/72%2Bkit%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Maybe Rafa knows where to get them.

Thanks for the link.  I had actually seen that build.  Tried searching for them but no success.
Course, as a resin kit, probably outside my $$$ range.

Guys, when I started this I really wasn't anticipating the sort of response there's been, it's great to see it's struck a chord with so many.

BUT

This is very regular by-product of posting a new GB thread, the same happened when the first profile GB ideas hit the board and it's taken roughly 18monnths to get it started (after four separate threads). I would ask that we get our Profile(s) Build(s) out of the way first then give one or two of the other GB's that have been on the books for a while a chance to get started, then maybe come-back to "Trainers with Teeth" in the Spring - but that doesn't stop us from jumping in here with ideas, questions and comments.

So, about my idea for a De Havilland Stealth Moth......  ;D

Ian

Quote from: Ian the Hunter-Gatherer on June 19, 2008, 11:36:29 AM
So, about my idea for a De Havilland Stealth Moth......  ;D
Ian

Painted black and toting Paveways?

USN Goshawk painted in gray with lowviz markings and weapons. I'm adding that to my "to-do" list.

Even have a reasonable back story: F-35 carrier version is delayed, some F/A-18s are reaching the end of their service lives and there's insufficient budget to correct or replace them. Goshawks need to be "upgraded" to fill carrier decks, so half the Goshawk fleet is modified - the centerline pylon is upgraded to take a fuel tank, a simple, lightweight radar is fitted, and the avionics updated to support air-to-air (Sidewinder) and air-to-ground (dumb bombs, rockets, and self-guided missiles.)

JoeP

Quote from: JoeP on June 19, 2008, 12:58:39 PM
USN Goshawk painted in gray with lowviz markings and weapons. I'm adding that to my "to-do" list.

Even have a reasonable back story: F-35 carrier version is delayed, some F/A-18s are reaching the end of their service lives and there's insufficient budget to correct or replace them. Goshawks need to be "upgraded" to fill carrier decks, so half the Goshawk fleet is modified - the centerline pylon is upgraded to take a fuel tank, a simple, lightweight radar is fitted, and the avionics updated to support air-to-air (Sidewinder) and air-to-ground (dumb bombs, rockets, and self-guided missiles.)

JoeP

Interesting idea: not strictly compliant to the GB, but I wonder how hard it would be to apply the Goshawk mods to a full-blown Hawk 200 single-seater airframe? The Gnat was proposed as a carrier aircraft,  so the Hawk seems a natural...

There was a Buckeye on ebay the other day - didn't somebody (Greece?) use them for weapons training in a cammo scheme? Another interesting possibility since the kits are out there.....

Actually, here's a backstory that could apply to either the Buckeye of JoeP's Goshawk idea, depending on the timeframe: carrier COIN. Let's say the US gets involved in a COIN campaign but doesn't have extensive troops on the ground and realises, after losing a lot of aircraft on the ground, that the security of the land airbases can't guaranteed. Cost is an issue, so (1960s to early 1980s timeframe) an older/smaller carrier is dragged out of mothballs* and equipped with armed Buckeyes, their being the carrier-capable equivalent of an A-37 Dragonfly. By the time the Goshawk's around there are no small carriers to be resurrected, so in this case the rationale is that a disillusion with UCAVs arises (accidents? Blue-on-blues?), but F-35s are judged far to expensive to be cost-effectively risked in large enough quantities. The armed Goshawk is adopted in order to "flood" a large area with a large number of aircraft, it being possible to carry very large numbers of them on a CVN.


*There was a serious early '80s proposal to refit the Oriskany as an A-4M & SH-60 armed "Light Strike Carrier" which would accompany a CVN, the latter being therefore able to offload it's A-7s and SH-60s in favour of more A-6s.

Well then, if the Goshawk isn't entirely GB-worthy (I'm still building it!), how about the T-6 Texan as a COIN aircraft? Same story - F-35 not ready, F/A-18s, USN needs all the aircraft it has it fill carrier decks, T-6 is updated to have a few underwing hardpoints and operates in low-air-threat environments.

Quote from: JoeP on June 20, 2008, 12:04:58 PM
Well then, if the Goshawk isn't entirely GB-worthy (I'm still building it!), how about the T-6 Texan as a COIN aircraft? Same story - F-35 not ready, F/A-18s, USN needs all the aircraft it has it fill carrier decks, T-6 is updated to have a few underwing hardpoints and operates in low-air-threat environments.

How about a slight twist and the USMC uses instead from their LHDs/LHAs?

BTW, the T-6 is already being put forward as the AT-6B light attack/COIN version:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.defenseindustrydaily.com%2Fimages%2FAIR_AT-6B_Concept_Desert_lg.jpg&hash=bec777e62436b1dfae4a065aaf26b520fb21f0de)

Regards,

Greg

Quote from: JoeP on June 20, 2008, 12:04:58 PM
Well then, if the Goshawk isn't entirely GB-worthy (I'm still building it!), how about the T-6 Texan as a COIN aircraft? Same story - F-35 not ready, F/A-18s, USN needs all the aircraft it has it fill carrier decks, T-6 is updated to have a few underwing hardpoints and operates in low-air-threat environments.

I didn't mean your Goshawk idea wasn't compliant to the GB, I meant that my musing about a navalised Hawk-200 wasn't! Your Goshawk idea is fine..... :thumbsup:

Quote from: pyro-manic on June 12, 2008, 02:31:08 PM
Renault Clio with L-plates and a pintle GPMG out the sunroof? ;D

In some parts of the Uk thats almost a standard fit LOL

Thanks to Modeling Madness, I have finally found an on-line reference image and the description for that little trainer kit that has been sitting here in protective custody.  It is the SIAT 223 Flamingo in 1/48th scale from PM of Turkey. 

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmodelingmadness.com%2Freviews%2Fmod%2Fpreviews%2Fpm206bt.jpg&hash=64b2d5328899ab223573716d61060138fe7959f0)

Here is the kit review from Modeling Madness for the 1/48th scale PM SIAT 223 Flamingo (http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/mod/previews/pm206.htm).  I remember the first thing that came to mind when I saw that kit in the hobby shop, an armed Flamingo for a FAC mission.  It is going to need at the very least some rocket pods for marking targets and if there is enough room under the wings for a pair gun pods, that could happen as well.  The cockpit is in dire need of an upgrade to something that resembles a military aircraft.  As it is out of the box it is pretty basic and it really does need a lot of work.  On the to do list but got no clue when it will be done.

Who - Hoo!

Just won an Airfix Magister on evilbay, so that's now earmarked for this GB. I'm thinking a single-seater in the same vein as the MB-326K.  ;D

Possible backstory is that Israel picked up the Super Magister project (stepped seats & bigger engines, basically) when no-one else did, and then converted the surplus first generation Tzukits to light-attack aircraft. One possible customer would be Honduras, given that they bought refurbished Super Mysteres from Israel in real life.

The MiG-8 Utka was intended as a trainer & light utility type.  Hang a couple of rocket pods off the wings of Unicraft's kit, hmmmm......

Weaver,
The Israelis did use the Magister as an attack plane during the 6 day war.  Have seen pics of them armed with 2 .30 cal machine guns in the nose and 4 rocket packs (7 shot?) under the wings.

Putting one in Honduran markings would be cool.

Quote from: philp on July 02, 2008, 11:38:35 AM
Weaver,
The Israelis did use the Magister as an attack plane during the 6 day war.  Have seen pics of them armed with 2 .30 cal machine guns in the nose and 4 rocket packs (7 shot?) under the wings.

Putting one in Honduran markings would be cool.

Exactly why they'd be the most likely to appreciate the value of a properly converted one. The payload of the basic aircraft was a bit limited, so losing the backseater in favour of a couple of cannon-ammo tanks, MB-326K style, seems like a good idea.

Here's a thought: the original engines (J-67s?) in the T-37 were licence-built Turbomeca Marbores, the same as the Magister. That implies that you could power-up the Magister RADICALLY by fitting J-85s in place of the Marbores, in just the same way Cessna did when creating the A-37B. The A-37B's engine bays are not significantly different (externally) to the T-37's..... A magister with 2 x J-85s would have about the same thrust as an MB-326K with one Viper.   :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

Okay, some rough profiles.

1. Is a standard Magister.

2. Has the rear cockpit replaced with two 30mm DEFAs in the lower fuselage, with their barrels under the front cockpit and an access panel and gas vent on the side. I didn't like the idea of MB-326K-style side blisters, since the Magister's air intakes are further back and I could see gun gas going into them.

3. Has the front cockpit replaced by two 30mm DEFAs in an enlarged gun bay in place of the original 7.62mm weapons. The only problem I can see with this one is that the ammo is a long way ahead of the CofG, so it might cause a trim problem as it was expended.

Opinions?


(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2FmagisterFIN.jpg&hash=b9174015ac50107c7ce3b6b0139e663f9228336c)

An obvious candidate for this GB that seems to be overlooked here is the Meteor T.7.  Stick some nightfighter wings on one, a couple of rocket pods on the wing pylons, and bobs yer uncle.  Now how can I work that into a RCAF one ---- hmm!

Ok guys,
We have the 1 week GB starting tomorrow (my time) and the Profile GB going on.

Anyone up for an Unofficial Trainers with Teeth GB starting after the 1 week build?

So would you believe it,  Bill Burns of CanMilAir has just uploaded a bunch of new decal sheets on his website including a couple for a RCAF Meteor Mk.III and a T.7  :o   What a bit of luck.

Quote from: philp on July 03, 2008, 05:09:24 PM
Ok guys,
We have the 1 week GB starting tomorrow (my time) and the Profile GB going on.

Anyone up for an Unofficial Trainers with Teeth GB starting after the 1 week build?

Count me in, Phil!
:thumbsup:
Brian da Basher

Wouldn't you know it, the Airfix Magister rolled up last night, and it's got two really nice little cockpits in it, much better than the usual Airfix fare..... just trying to make me feel guilty.... :banghead:

Quote from: Weaver on July 03, 2008, 10:05:42 AM2. Has the rear cockpit replaced with two 30mm DEFAs in the lower fuselage, with their barrels under the front cockpit and an access panel and gas vent on the side. I didn't like the idea of MB-326K-style side blisters, since the Magister's air intakes are further back and I could see gun gas going into them.

3. Has the front cockpit replaced by two 30mm DEFAs in an enlarged gun bay in place of the original 7.62mm weapons. The only problem I can see with this one is that the ammo is a long way ahead of the CofG, so it might cause a trim problem as it was expended.

Opinions?

Option two is crazy enough that it might work.  

Option three might also have a gun gas ingestion issue with the engines in addition to your center of gravity issues with all of that weight mounted forward.  

Another possibility would be to consider leaving the twin machine guns where they are and add additional guns under the wing.  The could be in pods on stores pylons or mounted directly to the wing as was done on some American aircraft during WWII and by the French on the T-6 Texan/Harvards that were used in Algeria.  A better dispersion of bullets for strafing purposes would be achieved by spreading your barrels out a bit for better results.  

I've been having another look at the MB-326K/Impala, and in fact, it's intake position is not much different, relatively speaking, to the Magister's. I therefore think that option 2, with guns in side blisters, would work the best. The former gun bay in the nose can house the black box for a small radar ranging set (EL-2001?), or maybe just a gun-camera.

Real world inspiration - a Bücker Bü 181 armed with 4 Panzerfaust:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2Fca15%2Fbckerb181lt8.jpg&hash=d78987255e337e484594024e8f419c6c344642b0)

Regards,

Greg

Jesus - the flight speed of those things is so low, and their velocity loss so sharp, that you'd be more likely to shoot yourself down than anything else...... :blink: :o

Quote from: nev on June 06, 2008, 06:30:22 AM

Quote from: Ian the Hunter-Gatherer on June 04, 2008, 11:46:39 AM

As you can see, this really (another) aviation themed Group Build idea. I'd be happy to 'mod' with somebody else (JHM, I'm looking at you !) it if it ever 'took-off' (pun intended). So over to you guys, let's read your thoughts and ideas..... it wont get onto the calender until 2009 at the earlies so lots and lots of time.

Ian

Fixed that for you mate ;)

You guys gotta PM me with such things.  Yes, if we can get this officially executed at some future point, I'll gladly "moderate" the GB and provide some sort of prize.  It's a great idea.  All just a matter of timing now.   :thumbsup:

Woo hoo! Don't normally announce ebay aquisitions until they roll up on my doorstep, but I can't keep this one quiet! I just went to My Ebay to do something totally different, clicked on the wrong auction (a Novo FD.2 which I didn't win) by mistake, and then clicked on the "find similar auctions" by mistake AGAIN! And what popped up?

A Master Hobby 1/72nd scale PZL TS.11 Iskra 200, with no bids on it and 46 seconds to go.

Not only is this a trainer that you don't see kits of every day, but it's the single-seat attack version to boot, with hardpoints and a 23mm! Cost? £3.85 including P&P  ;D ;D ;D

Deep joy............ :wub: :thumbsup:

Nice pick up Weave, I have one of the trainer versions of this plane.  I may have to dig it out for this.

All,
Do we want to wait for an Official GB on this (who knows when in the future) or do we want to start an Unofficial GB say Aug 1?

What do you think, my Chipmunk keeps talking to me and I don't know how much longer I can hold out  :blink:

Whether official or not, count me in! I've got a couple of kits that I can't wait to build for this!

Brian da Basher

i think its a great idea, count me in  ;D

Quote from: Weaver on July 20, 2008, 01:42:01 PM
Woo hoo! Don't normally announce ebay aquisitions until they roll up on my doorstep, but I can't keep this one quiet! I just went to My Ebay to do something totally different, clicked on the wrong auction (a Novo FD.2 which I didn't win) by mistake, and then clicked on the "find similar auctions" by mistake AGAIN! And what popped up?

A Master Hobby 1/72nd scale PZL TS.11 Iskra 200, with no bids on it and 46 seconds to go.

Not only is this a trainer that you don't see kits of every day, but it's the single-seat attack version to boot, with hardpoints and a 23mm! Cost? £3.85 including P&P  ;D ;D ;D

Deep joy............ :wub: :thumbsup:

This arrived today.


It's a cracking little kit: nicely moulded and detailed, and has the option of single or twin seat versions, both with canopies that hinge (little kid Oooooh factor 10  ;D) It even has, wait for it, a detailed, 3-piece engine, even though there's no provision to see it when it's fitted! Only things I can see wrong now are abysmal crew figures (worst I've ever seen) and one or two sink marks in awkward places. The decals are crap too (a shame, since there's lots of them).

The Iglish on the instruction sheet is quite amusing:

"Construction - wings of double lifted construction, halfcrusted, endowed with ailerons, flaps with two chinks and aerodynamic brakes. The whole uplifted in chains on a trunk. Drive - one jest (sic) engine SO-3 or SO-3B of 981 daN. Armament - one steady 23mm gun at the front of trunk and nonguided missiles, guns, fuel tanks or bombs hanged on four underwing bounds."

;D

I will NOT be modifying this physically (although I'm tempted to find out how the bay opens in order to show off that engine) since it's quite obscure enough already, but I will probably do it in whiff colours of some small, possibly non-existent TPLAC.

I checked with Ian, Nev and Jeff since they had broached the GB idea originally and we have decided to let this idea go to the next Official GB poll (although I will personally vote for the LSR again  :wub:).

If it doesn't get voted in as an Official GB at that time, we will open it as an unofficial one.  So keep those kits ready.

Maybe the tow could be merged into a "Low, slow, and kicking donkey" GB.

Or we could wait for the next monthly GB poll !

Ian

Or what he said.

The Airfix 1/72 Jet Provost/Strikemaster kit is due out again soon.  It was fairly popular in the real world with nations on a budget but still has plenty of possibilities.  Argentina maybe, before the Junta got in?

Quote from: philp on July 24, 2008, 12:12:37 PM
I checked with Ian, Nev and Jeff since they had broached the GB idea originally and we have decided to let this idea go to the next Official GB poll (although I will personally vote for the LSR again  :wub:).

If it doesn't get voted in as an Official GB at that time, we will open it as an unofficial one.  So keep those kits ready.

Huh?  This thing's on track to be on the GB poll after the Handley-Page one get's up there, October at the earliest.

You want to run an unofficial one in the meantime, go for it, have fun!  Post in-progress builds in the Workbench section and completed entries in this thread to keep interest up.

Just seen this model of a CAC CA31 jet trainer, nice looking build.  After Thorvics post on the CA23 thread about Uncle Les Resins, I looked them up on the net & the only model I could find was this one.

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FModels%2FCommonwealthAircraftCA31.jpg&hash=c6ac8ce0e756130b61aa9360b9a8861ae12d6113)

Original article here
http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/portland/971/Reviews/raaf/ca-31.htm (http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/portland/971/Reviews/raaf/ca-31.htm)

It'd make a nice build for this GB, if you can get hold of one.

Lovely model. Thanks for posting!
:wub: :wub: :wub: :thumbsup:

Since this proposed group build deals with Counter Insurgency and such, I was thinking that maybe we should combine the "COIN" group build that was proposed by Rallymodeler with the "Trainers With Teeth" group build that was proposed by Ian Hunter Gatherer since both are on a similar subject.

Would that be acceptable?

Seems like a good idea to me, since it then allows "light-cargo" types like Cessna Caravans, Do-28s etc, that arn't, strictly-speaking, trainers as such, but which are still in the spirit of an aircraft adapted to the light attack role from some other primary purpose.

Maybe some proper defintion of COIN and Trainers is need though, otherwise you could argue that a Jaguar E taking out a terrorist hideout with an AS-30L from 20,000ft was "trainer COIN".

Quote from: Weaver on July 31, 2008, 03:07:11 AMSeems like a good idea to me, since it then allows "light-cargo" types like Cessna Caravans, Do-28s etc, that arn't, strictly-speaking, trainers as such, but which are still in the spirit of an aircraft adapted to the light attack role from some other primary purpose.

Should we set it up for a vote?

Quote from: Weaver on July 31, 2008, 03:07:11 AMMaybe some proper defintion of COIN and Trainers is need though, otherwise you could argue that a Jaguar E taking out a terrorist hideout with an AS-30L from 20,000ft was "trainer COIN".

Would it count if it were a two seat Jaguar? :)  I have to agree with you on that.  It would be a stretch of the imagination if you are building a standard fighter/attack aircraft and claiming it was performing a counter-insurgency mission.  While in real life that may have been the case (F-100 and F-4 Fast FAC), I think it would be best to try and steer away from conventional combat aircraft for this group build and focus on things with a seating capacity for two or more passengers (crew).  It may be possible to stretch the scope of the build by using earlier period aircraft in modern settings such as the F-51 Mustang and F-82 Twin Mustang or other period aircraft involved in recent conflicts.  I wonder if Brian could get in on this with a spatted SE-5 fitted with a few modern weapons?

Trainers with Teeth Group Build (proposed by Ian the Hunter-Gatherer)

COIN Build (proposed by Rallymodeler)

Since these two proposed group builds are similar in scope would it be wise to merge these two into one group build or leave them as separate proposals? 

You can read through both group build proposals before you make your decision.

well, to me, armed trainers and CION aircraft are exactly the same thing.
most or all CION aircraft are infact armed derivatives of trainers (such as the PC-7/9 & T-37)

so yes, merge the builds  :mellow:

Although what Nils says is true, the two do have a number of aircraft that would work well in both GB's, there are a number of COIN (COunter INsurgence) aircraft that haven't been trainers that I'm aware of,  A-26 Invader, AD-1,2,3,4 Skyraider, DH Hornet, Beaufighter, Brigand, even Avro Lincolns I think (last four in Burma), come to mind, also a number of helicopters.  But if the title of the GB was modified to cover all aspects, I would say yes to a merge.

Robert

How about a qualifier on the lines of 'second line, support & obselete aircraft modified for front line warfare'?

Second line covers aircraft like the Pucara which are purpose built for the COIN role, support covers trainers, transport & cargo aircraft, obeslete covers any aircraft used well outside the state of the art of the timeframe chosen (which could include modern aircraft in a future war I suppose).

So, with this definition, do gunships like my Gunvan idea qualify?

Seems to be moving well away from the original intent of the Trainers with Teeth idea but if it gets more people to support it (ie, vote for it) then the more the merrier I guess.

Really makes no difference to me as I will be working on my Chipmunk before the GB gets a chance to be voted in.
We have a Regional in Sept and I am hoping to have a few whiffs on the tables.

I think if we kept them seperate there would be so much overlap that each would lose participation.  A merge sounds good to me.

Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on July 31, 2008, 03:44:06 AM
Trainers with Teeth Group Build (proposed by Ian the Hunter-Gatherer)

COIN Build (proposed by Rallymodeler)

Since these two proposed group builds are similar in scope would it be wise to merge these two into one group build or leave them as separate proposals? 

You can read through both group build proposals before you make your decision.

The poll booth is now closed to any further voting.  With the majority of 22 votes for the merge and 1 against the merge, the masses have spoken and I shall merge the two group build proposals.   

The new group build proposal will be titled "Trainers With Teeth and COIN Group Build"

Has anyone come up with suitable prize or prizes for this group build? 

Will it be model kits or something else? 

Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on August 16, 2008, 06:18:57 PM
Has anyone come up with suitable prize or prizes for this group build? 

Will it be model kits or something else? 

Well, we need to get the votes out so this one wins when it makes the GB Poll first.

Should it get a slot on the Official GB Calendar, I'm sure I could find something suitable from my stash.
:cheers:
Brian da Basher

Quote from: Weaver on July 23, 2008, 05:15:25 PM

Quote from: Weaver on July 20, 2008, 01:42:01 PM
Woo hoo! Don't normally announce ebay aquisitions until they roll up on my doorstep, but I can't keep this one quiet! I just went to My Ebay to do something totally different, clicked on the wrong auction (a Novo FD.2 which I didn't win) by mistake, and then clicked on the "find similar auctions" by mistake AGAIN! And what popped up?

A Master Hobby 1/72nd scale PZL TS.11 Iskra 200, with no bids on it and 46 seconds to go.

Not only is this a trainer that you don't see kits of every day, but it's the single-seat attack version to boot, with hardpoints and a 23mm! Cost? £3.85 including P&P  ;D ;D ;D

Deep joy............ :wub: :thumbsup:

This arrived today.


It's a cracking little kit: nicely moulded and detailed, and has the option of single or twin seat versions, both with canopies that hinge (little kid Oooooh factor 10  ;D) It even has, wait for it, a detailed, 3-piece engine, even though there's no provision to see it when it's fitted! Only things I can see wrong now are abysmal crew figures (worst I've ever seen) and one or two sink marks in awkward places. The decals are crap too (a shame, since there's lots of them).

The Iglish on the instruction sheet is quite amusing:

"Construction - wings of double lifted construction, halfcrusted, endowed with ailerons, flaps with two chinks and aerodynamic brakes. The whole uplifted in chains on a trunk. Drive - one jest (sic) engine SO-3 or SO-3B of 981 daN. Armament - one steady 23mm gun at the front of trunk and nonguided missiles, guns, fuel tanks or bombs hanged on four underwing bounds."

;D

I will NOT be modifying this physically (although I'm tempted to find out how the bay opens in order to show off that engine) since it's quite obscure enough already, but I will probably do it in whiff colours of some small, possibly non-existent TPLAC.

To be completely fair to the imperfections in your Iskra kit, remember it is a reworked and reissued version of a KP kit that dates back to the early 70s. Master Hobby has reworked and reissued several of the old KP kits over the past few years. I was eyeing up a KP issue of the Iskra a while back but decided not to buy as the canopy was fogged beyond all concievable polishing and Future dipping. It looked very nice otherwise.

Would it be in good form to include the two seat fighters in this group build?  I am referring to aircraft such as the TF-18, TF-8, TF-9, and other similar trainer versions of the front line fighters and attack aircraft.  Even the F-4 was provided with twin sticks on occasion so it too could be qualified as a 'trainer' if you put a second stick in the back seat. 

I would hope not - the zoomies get all the glamour and publicity, but I'm not in charge of course ;)

Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on September 30, 2008, 10:33:03 PM
Would it be in good form to include the two seat fighters in this group build?  I am referring to aircraft such as the TF-18, TF-8, TF-9, and other similar trainer versions of the front line fighters and attack aircraft.  Even the F-4 was provided with twin sticks on occasion so it too could be qualified as a 'trainer' if you put a second stick in the back seat. 

I would say no.

Twin-stick fast jets are still "major war" hardware, whereas I think the spirit of this GB is COIN and bush wars: small, cheap aircraft adapted for simple weapons, often improvised.

Yeah, I agree with Nev & Weave, frontline aircraft as trainers are more 'teeth as trainers'.  They're more to instruct pilots on that particular airframe, I guess the spirit here is something that is a more generalised trainer?  Other than frontline aircraft, there are many trainers that have been adapted from other roles.  The Dominie comes to mind, built as a bizjet but used by the RAF & others as a trainer for larger types.  Is the stipulation that the aircraft must be designed as a trainer, or just that it's not a frontline aircraft?

Spent Wednesday morning over at my mums' house, clearing out the garage for her. Threw out a LOT of old broken-down models, but FOUND amongst the detratus a never opened Airfix SA Bulldog..... It's very possible that this could find its' way into the GB...... but then so could my (mentioned elsewhere) Airfix Hawk 100...... I'm also stalking a 1:48 Heller Alpha Jet on eBay just now.

Even if the GB doesn't go-ahead, I'll be building these anyway...... but the GB would be great, wouldn't it :thumbsup:

Ian

Maybe that could be the follow-on GB?  2 seat F-22 etc ;)

New Poll is out and we are running strong for 1st with 5 being picked this time.  If you haven't already, get over there and vote.

Quote from: Ian the Hunter-Gatherer on November 01, 2008, 05:04:03 AM
...... I'm also stalking a 1:48 Heller Alpha Jet on eBay just now.

Even if the GB doesn't go-ahead, I'll be building these anyway...... but the GB would be great, wouldn't it :thumbsup:

Ian

Got the A-J now (collected it at Telford)...... Already have the decals & loadout ready-to-go..... You have been warned !

Ian

I've got a Stearman biplane, Ryan PT-20 and a Bleriot IX I've been saving for this baby!
:cheers:
Brian da Basher

Is there any chance I could bung a few of my aircraft in here? COIN/CAS  aircraft are my favourite subjects.
I can make another COIN/CAS F-84 if that is allowed or perhaps another Toucano, or maybe one of my current projects a jet powered S-2 Tracker coin aircraft.I have some OV-10 NOGS kits and some different versions of OV-1 Mohawks, or......perhaps a turbo prop OVP-2 Neptune Coin aircraft.
I have all sorts to have a go at really.
Chris.

Quote from: chrisonord on November 17, 2008, 03:01:34 PM
Is there any chance I could bung a few of my aircraft in here? COIN/CAS  aircraft are my favourite subjects.
I can make another COIN/CAS F-84 if that is allowed or perhaps another Toucano, or maybe one of my current projects a jet powered S-2 Tracker coin aircraft.I have some OV-10 NOGS kits and some different versions of OV-1 Mohawks, or......perhaps a turbo prop OVP-2 Neptune Coin aircraft.
I have all sorts to have a go at really.
Chris.

Assuming this GB ends out making the cut, you'd be more than welcome to join in, just be sure to direct any specific eligibility questions to the GB moderator once the official GB topic is posted.

The more, the merrier!
:cheers:
Brian da Basher

Nice one, I think I should have something that will do, unless I build em all first lol.
Chris.

Well I think I might just have found a good candidate for this GB. A canadair tutor, in 1/72nd on EEK(how much)Bay. It has by tjhe looks of ot 2 fuselage pylons but i am sure I can make some more for the wings, and give it a gun pod, Hellfires and some rocket pods. Am I allowed to put a FLIR pod on it?? and maybe some wing tip sidewinders??
Chris.

Chris

Malaysia bought some of the Tutors configured as ground attack a/c for the COIN role.  You might be able to find some pictures of them to use as a guide showing weapons or pylons. 

Ed

Cheers Ed, I was going to base the weapons/pylon layout on the ones on my A-37's. I have built one, which is going to be part of my Honduran airforce wing, the other might belong to the US Marines, or it may also be donated to the Hondurans.
I am in the process of converting a Eurocopter Dauphin as an assault helo for them also.

Funny, I'm going to do my single-seat Magister in Honduran colours: the back story is that it's an Israeli conversion, and since the Israelis sold them Super Mysteres, they might also have sold them the Magister COINs too.

Quote from: Weaver on November 19, 2008, 05:07:52 PM
Funny, I'm going to do my single-seat Magister in Honduran colours: the back story is that it's an Israeli conversion, and since the Israelis sold them Super Mysteres, they might also have sold them the Magister COINs too.

I too have an old Airfix Fouga Magister, quite an old one 1974 NIB, I dont know what to do with it as it could be worth a few quid. It would make a good COIN aircraft, I am just waiting to get my mits on some Honduran decals.
My Honduran airforce is quite a mixed bunch of aircraft now. I just got 2 new aircraft for it this morning, a DHC-7 and a F-5e tiger 2.
My other aircraft are as follows (sorry about the off topic stuff people).
2 A-37 dragonflies, 2 Pucara's, 2 Toucano's, a turbo mentor, 2 F-84 conversions,1 AC- 160 Transall gunship, 1 AC-119 gunship,1 Nord Atlas,2 Mirage 2000's 1 super Etendard, 1 AO/P-2 Turbo Neptune Coin/Gunship. 1 Shorts sky van,1 Canadair Tutor, 2 UH-1 D's, 1 HH-65 Dauphin, 1 OH-6,2 Gazelles. I think that is everything lol. There is probably more than the Hondurans actually have lol. I have been trying to find some 1/72nd scale Super mysteres,but finding them is pretty hard.
Chris.   

My idea of Israel supplying single-seat Magisters to Honduras was based solely on the fact of them supplying the SMB2s. Interestingly, I subsequently found out that Israel really did supply Magisters (normal ones, obviously) and Ouragans to El Salvador at the same time! Nice work if you can get it: supplying BOTH sides of an arms race..... :wacko:

Chris: When I do mine, I'll make it perfectly clear that my project is NOT related to yours, just in case.

My intention is to do it as a "dogfight double" with a Nicaraguan single-seat Iskra which I have. At the same time, but not directly in this GB, I'll do an Israeli swept-wing "Super Magister" which explains why they've got straight wing ones surplus for conversion and export.

Is there such a thing as a Long-EZ kit?  I think it'd look great in camo with rocket pods or small bombs.  Just think, you could build your own private army!

Versions have had external tanks fitted & the XCOR EZ-Rocket has an underslung tank, adding ordanance isn't much of a stretch.

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FLongEZ.jpg&hash=69fc9c23a2a51fcae84deead6a4d9fccefcb84b0)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FLongEZRocket.jpg&hash=6f132ec097d3a874779d56c0115472b5639ccb20)

That's a good idea! Rocket pods, a couple of .50 machine guns, and maybe some Hellfires. :thumbsup:

ive been thinking of some COIN concepts myself  ;D
as the A-37's are getting a little old,  ithought why doesnt BAe build a better COIN version of the Hawk.
sure these days they build the Hawk 200 1-seat attack aircraft, but i made my own version, the second cockpit was removed for more electronics and more fuel  ;D

and if they dont like it, there's always my spitfire GB entry, the Spitfire OA.60  :lol:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi307.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fnn292%2FNilssteyaert%2Fwhat%2520if%2Fspitfires%2Fspitfire%2520OA60%2Fspit2-12.jpg&hash=b72f5de57b4a8ecd08009ec5e18ecaede3e2721e)

other COIN platforms im concidereing are

-Fock-Wulf Flitzer (got 2 in the stash)
-O-1 Bird Dog (small, but can be modified with some gun pods)
-Gnat trainers (why not, they had a big role in "Hot Shots")
-Alpha-Jet (Guatemala was interested in buying 10 Ex-belgian Ajets to replace the A-37 in 2005)
-K-8
-Dornier 228 (Gunship configuration à la AC-47 "Spooky")


i got the insperation for modifying this hawk from looking at the mitsubishi F-1 and the SU-25 frogfoot/scorpion  :wub:
although depicted is a HAwk T.1, i plan to modify a Hawk 100 for this one  ;D

The Hawk would make a good Coin aircraft and even as a 2 seater,it could have a duel role as a combat trainer. That Spitfire is marvellous!
I have been looking at ww2 aircraft for a while now to convert into turbo prop coin aircraft, but have not found anything I really want to convert, except maybe an aircobra, or P-51D. I have another F-84 in the stash that I am going to convert, but this one will have more of an air to air capability with the wing tanks cut off and replaced with sidewinder rails, and 2 rapid fire/Gatling cannon pods. These wil be handy for taking out drug runner planes and helicopters.
Tomorrow I will try and take some pics of my current COIN project, a turbo fan powered S-2 Tracker. This was going to be a turbo prop but ended up being jet powered, it has a 20 mm cannon in a turret that is augmented by the FLIR pod on the starboard side, for close support of ground forces, 4 hellfire missiles, 4 rocket pods, 2 sidewinders, 1 ecm pod, and a built in forward firing 30 mm cannon, and a LANTIRN pod. I am still not decided on the current paint scheme(its on its third lol), and the canopy just did not want to fit properly, so it looks a bit crap, but you can't have everything can you!!
Chris.

Quote from: Mossie on November 21, 2008, 05:13:09 AM
Is there such a thing as a Long-EZ kit?  I think it'd look great in camo with rocket pods or small bombs.  Just think, you could build your own private army!

Versions have had external tanks fitted & the XCOR EZ-Rocket has an underslung tank, adding ordanance isn't much of a stretch.

Cardoen in Chile do a 37mm rocket that comes in 7-round pods: ideal for a micro-COIN.

Quote from: Ed S on November 18, 2008, 10:47:33 AM
Chris

Malaysia bought some of the Tutors configured as ground attack a/c for the COIN role.  You might be able to find some pictures of them to use as a guide showing weapons or pylons. 

Ed

My reference book says 6 pylons and a 4000lb warload, which is pretty good, given that the Tutor isn't exactly over-powered. It has a nice colour profile of the Malaysian one too, but no pylons shown, unfortunately.

Thinking about side-by-side trainers generally, does anyone remember the COIN version of the SIPA Micro-jet? It had a 20mm cannon in place of one seat: you could do that kind of thing on any number of other side-by-side trainers too.

I am sure, seen as it is a whatif, re-engine it, with a slightly more powerful unit I'm sure a reasonable weapons load it would make a usable weapons platform. I have an old (1973) Dornier Alphajet kit that I think would be a good CAS/COIN aircraft.
Well I think my weapons stash is going to get severely depleted after this lot!
Chris. 

Here is a couple of pictures of my S-2 Jet Tracker, COIN aircraft. I will put more in the ongoing/ finished projects thread.
She isn't finished as yet, the paint needs alot of changing and finishing, as the canopy was a nightmare to get to fit properly.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi371.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo154%2Fchrisonord%2Fs-2JetTracker006.jpg&hash=d9026568e2267ff5bb90ecd3e2958a1d1aee3985)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi371.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo154%2Fchrisonord%2Fs-2JetTracker004.jpg&hash=8d2f68ab68ae837f5f42da33fa7ff24e7fe13989)
I think this plane could be quite a formidable adversary.
Chris

Well....this thread seems to have dropped off the face of the earth..
I have a few different suitable aircraft, Mohawks, Bronco's Alpha jets, F-84 converts, Tucano's, Pucara's, S- jet tracker, Fouga Magister. How about a turbo prop P-38 coin aircraft??   

Quote from: Nils on November 21, 2008, 01:13:45 PM
iother COIN platforms im concidereing are

-Alpha-Jet (Guatemala was interested in buying 10 Ex-belgian Ajets to replace the A-37 in 2005)

Mine is sitting quietly next to my workbench - the back-story was written only last night, all that is needed now is the GO signal from Komrade Anatoly  :wacko:

Ian

Is this acceptable?
Does she need external stores?

That certainly looks the part, but you might have to spoil it by covering the undersides of the wings with rocket pods bombs and heavy caliber gun pods.Just as a matter of interest, what is your plane made from ie donor aircraft, I think it looks pretty cool.
Chris.

Just pieces from many kits in different scales :banghead:. Still in planning phase. :thumbsup:

Quote from: ysi_maniac on November 28, 2008, 05:48:48 AM
Is this acceptable?
Does she need external stores?

in my eyes it is  ;D
could be quite easy to build

-underside fuselage from a 1/144 SU-47
-upper fuselage and radar cone from an 1/72 SU-27UB/SU-30
-tailplanes from an SU-27
-wings from an 1/72 SU-47 (swept back)
-an engine from an SU-27
-putty, lots and lots of putty

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2khN2fnfvV0 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2khN2fnfvV0)

Interesting vid!

Pretty cool!

A question regarding this build - I have an idea for a COIN aircraft, but it's not based on a "trainer" as such. It's a prop job from WW2, so I assume this will be OK?

Was there ever a trainer version of the TSR.2 planned?   And if yes, what external missiles could/would it have carried? 
Daryl J., hoping the question is in the right thread......

Quote from: pyro-manic on November 28, 2008, 04:58:10 PM
Pretty cool!

A question regarding this build - I have an idea for a COIN aircraft, but it's not based on a "trainer" as such. It's a prop job from WW2, so I assume this will be OK?

With the combination of formats, any COIN build will be just fine.

Good good. ;D

Quote from: Daryl J. on November 28, 2008, 05:24:50 PM
Was there ever a trainer version of the TSR.2 planned?   And if yes, what external missiles could/would it have carried? 
Daryl J., hoping the question is in the right thread......

There was a discussion somewhere back on this thread about trainer versions of front-line jets, and it was agreed (I think) that they shouldn't be elegible for this GB. The thinking is that the "spirit" of this GB is armed adaptions of aircraft whose primary role is training, hence the merger with the COIN thread. Having said that, the "official" rules for this GB have yet to be posted.

And in answer to the question - I don't know.... ;D I'd imagine there'd have to be, just as there are "full twin-stick" Tornados, but whether any work was done on them or what they'd look like (given the lousy view out of the back of a TSR.2) I don't know.

personally, i dont think a 2-seat TSR-2 is eligable.
same goes for the F/A-18D/F, F-16B/D/F,.....
cause most, if not all, 2-seat versions of fighterjets are more strike aircraft rather then trainers.

to me, as said before by Weaver, a COIN aircraft is an armed adaption of a pure-trainer aircraft or observation planes, such as the Tucano, Hawk, Alpha-jet, L-39, A/T-37,.....or even light subsonic aircraft.

the A-10 could also be a COIN platform, as it is one already, see O/A-10A.

although COIN aircraft can also be a specific designed aircraft such as the A-67 Dragonfly, A-1 Skyraider, OV-10 bronco, OV-1 Mohawk,...

Got it.   :thumbsup:


Daryl J.

Quote from: Nils on November 29, 2008, 09:11:52 AM
personally, i dont think a 2-seat TSR-2 is eligable.
same goes for the F/A-18D/F, F-16B/D/F,.....
cause most, if not all, 2-seat versions of fighterjets are more strike aircraft rather then trainers.

to me, as said before by Weaver, a COIN aircraft is an armed adaption of a pure-trainer aircraft or observation planes, such as the Tucano, Hawk, Alpha-jet, L-39, A/T-37,.....or even light subsonic aircraft.

the A-10 could also be a COIN platform, as it is one already, see O/A-10A.

although COIN aircraft can also be a specific designed aircraft such as the A-67 Dragonfly, A-1 Skyraider, OV-10 bronco, OV-1 Mohawk,...

Nils et al
I've drafted some ROOLZ for the GB, and already posted them to Komrade Anatoli for his perusal and modification. I've put my ideass on the Front Line Vs Second Line trainer into the first or second rool. Briefly it's breaks-down into this:-

F/A-18B/D's and the like are fine and will not be dis-allowed, however when the voting happens, it is likely that those models more in the 'spirit' of the GB will emerge as front runners.
HtH.

Ian

Quote from: Ian the Hunter-Gatherer on December 01, 2008, 06:52:03 AM

Quote from: Nils on November 29, 2008, 09:11:52 AM
personally, i dont think a 2-seat TSR-2 is eligable.
same goes for the F/A-18D/F, F-16B/D/F,.....
cause most, if not all, 2-seat versions of fighterjets are more strike aircraft rather then trainers.

to me, as said before by Weaver, a COIN aircraft is an armed adaption of a pure-trainer aircraft or observation planes, such as the Tucano, Hawk, Alpha-jet, L-39, A/T-37,.....or even light subsonic aircraft.

the A-10 could also be a COIN platform, as it is one already, see O/A-10A.

although COIN aircraft can also be a specific designed aircraft such as the A-67 Dragonfly, A-1 Skyraider, OV-10 bronco, OV-1 Mohawk,...

Nils et al
I've drafted some ROOLZ for the GB, and already posted them to Komrade Anatoli for his perusal and modification. I've put my ideass on the Front Line Vs Second Line trainer into the first or second rool. Briefly it's breaks-down into this:-

F/A-18B/D's and the like are fine and will not be dis-allowed, however when the voting happens, it is likely that those models more in the 'spirit' of the GB will emerge as front runners.
HtH.

Ian

Excellent Mr Hunter-Gatherer! I'm very much looking forward to seeing this Group Build begin!
:cheers:
Brian da Basher

I took an inventory of "The Stash" and I have 2 trainers in there bolth japanese 1st is the Mitsubishi T-2 Blue Impulse team boxing from Hase the 2nd is the Kawasaki T-4 Trainer also in the Blue Impulse team colors I'll probably do one of these for this build
"Panzer"

Quote from: Daryl J. on November 28, 2008, 05:24:50 PMWas there ever a trainer version of the TSR.2 planned?   And if yes, what external missiles could/would it have carried? 
Daryl J., hoping the question is in the right thread......

One of our members did build a TSR2 Trainer version that used a canopy from a Folland Gnat trainer and it came out looking real good.  Do not remember who it was but you might want to do a search under the TSR2 Forum Board for it. 

Quote from: Weaver on November 29, 2008, 08:35:05 AMThere was a discussion somewhere back on this thread about trainer versions of front-line jets, and it was agreed (I think) that they shouldn't be elegible for this GB. The thinking is that the "spirit" of this GB is armed adaptions of aircraft whose primary role is training, hence the merger with the COIN thread. Having said that, the "official" rules for this GB have yet to be posted.

That was me that brought that up in this topic and for good reason since the original threads had been on COIN aircraft and Trainers before they were merged it was something that needed to be discussed. 

........since I'm in dentistry......perhaps I should give the lab a call and see what they'd charge me to make some real porcelain fangs and put them on some type of trainer.   That would literally be a trainer with teeth wouldn't it????      :blink: ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Nah.....the lab bills would be pushing over $US1,000..... :banghead:   Otherwise I'd do it just for the pun.



Daryl J., admittedly a little silly

My oldest got a custom pair from our dentist for only $50 a couple years ago when he was working the Haunted House at Lagoon.

I do like the idea, but maybe just painting them on...

another good trainer that could be turned into a COIN/CAS aircraft is the Sabca S60.
it was SABCA's awnser to the fokker S.15 Machtrainer, designed as a new trainer for the Belgian Air Force.
however, it didnt get any further then the drawing board  :angry:

it does have some potential

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.baha.be%2Fimages%2Fsabca%2Fimage006.jpg&hash=0342eb06aca1ec17ef778d56ac7e5cf2237dd9cf)

So who is taking the lead on this?

Anthony sent me an email and I can run it but I didn't orignate the GB idea.

We need start date, rules, etc.

Well seeing as this is my monster, so to speak, gimme a day or so to come up with some details.

You got it Jeremy.
If you want some help, I am willing to assist.

No teeth but it could be built as such.  Here is a link to a 1/48th scale  L&M Resin PC-9A & PC-9AM built by Igor Petrovic (http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal9/8301-8400/gal8320-PC-9-Petrovic/00.shtm) that I thought would be worth sharing. 

Not familiar with L&M Resin but this looks like a nice kit. 

Has anyone heard when this GB is going to get off the ground?

I may not be able to hold back on my Bleriot IX, Stearman and Ryan PT-20 much longer...
:cheers:
Brian da Basher

My Chipmunk is ready and waiting also.

Think Rallymodeler and/or Nils have the duty on this.

I did volunteer but they are the ones who suggested the GB.

Actually, haven't heard any info on any of the last 5 GBs that were voted in.

Quote from: philp on January 07, 2009, 03:46:32 PM
Think Rallymodeler and/or Nils have the duty on this.

I did volunteer but they are the ones who suggested the GB.

i dont think i suggested the GB, but i do like to enter.
i still have a Gnat here witch was meant for the Grey Pride GB, but never got on the worktable as i was to busy with the spitfire GB and other projects.

im still thinking of entering with a modified singleseat Hawk T.1 or T.2, and maybe even a COIN helicopter  :mellow:

Does the existence of this subforum mean that there is no competition but special common interst?

Quote from: ysi_maniac on January 13, 2009, 11:26:41 AM
Does the existence of this subforum mean that there is no competition but special common interst?

I presume it just means that there were several related threads, better kept together, and that when/if the GB is launched, it will have it's own forum as usual.

Quote from: ysi_maniac on January 13, 2009, 11:26:41 AMDoes the existence of this subforum mean that there is no competition but special common interst?

Quote from: Weaver on January 14, 2009, 04:19:23 AMI presume it just means that there were several related threads, better kept together, and that when/if the GB is launched, it will have it's own forum as usual.

Carlos,

I set up the sub-forum/child board so that the group build could be launched by Anthony when the time comes.  All he has to do is move it. 

Can i play?
I'd like to do a Coin Zlin 142, I might try 'digital' camo in two tone green with colourful markings from one of the ZotZ sets

something African I think..

Welcome aboard, Deon. Enjoy the ride.......

Ian

Hope the GB starts soon, I need something 'to do' and I have a Mustang+Tempest+FW190 thing I want to build! :banghead:

Okay, let's get this dog and pony show on the road.

I've had soem time to think about how this should go, and here is my idea:

I'd like to run this GB a little differently than previous GBs -- more like a "mini contest". What I'd like to do is have the entrants send pics in to me via PM, and I will post them anonymously on an "entries" thread. When the contest date has come and gone, I will post all the entries at that time, and voting will then commence.

As to the rules:

1. This is a build for COIN aircraft and trainers retasked for armed duties. Please bear in mind that a Phantom would NOT make a good COIN aircraft, although a Corsair II would. Read up on the US Air Force's LARA project (resulted in the OV-10) for more details on what would make a good COIN. Similarly, any gunship is classified as COIN, as that is their primary purpose.

2. Trainers accepted will be aircraft that were designed as trainers, then converted to armed duties, like the A-37, Strikemaster, Tebuan and so forth.

3. Helicopters are acceptable as long as they begin life as transport types; this means no attack helos. The Mi-24 is a special case as it is both and will be treated as such.

4. Backstory is up to the submitter and should be sent in with the pictures. This judge likes backstories, but they are not necessary.

5. Bribes, as always, are accepted and indeed encouraged. Please bear in mind that I do not drink, but foreign cigarettes are always welcome.

6. There is no Rule 6.

7. To ensure fairness, I will not be submitting an entry.

8. Start and end dates TBD.

9. Any alterations, suggestions, etc. will be taken under advisement.

So get to it. I will consult with the Powers that Be to set up something more specific. Have at it, and Happy Hunting!

This should be interesting.  So, as I understand it, we don't start a "build thread" but rather send pictures & story to you and you create the thread without saying who is building what model. 

Ed

Regarding Rule 2, do you have a view on aircraft like the Vampire, MiG-15UTI and Yak-17?

Although these were based on early jet fighters, the two seat trainers had very large production runs in their own right and remained in service long after the fighters had been retired. In fact I don't think that the Soviet air force ever regarded even the single seat Yak15/17 as more than a training fighter and I think that the  bulk of Yak-17 production was of the two seater.

And does it matter, in any case, if, say, the MiG-15UTI was entered as a COIN aircraft rather than a trainer-with-teeth?

Regards,

Gordon (who, in an uncanny coincidence, has a large stash of MiG-15UTIs and Yak15/17s - -  -)

A while back I did a COIN F-84 conversion, with turbo prop, and a 2 seat conversion, and shed load of weaponry.Would this be acceptable if I built another one of these, or does it have to be an actual aircraft as is and not made into something else?
Chris

Quote from: chrisonord on January 15, 2009, 04:55:41 PM
A while back I did a COIN F-84 conversion, with turbo prop, and a 2 seat conversion, and shed load of weaponry.Would this be acceptable if I built another one of these, or does it have to be an actual aircraft as is and not made into something else?
Chris

Chris, this is "WHAT IF".  :wacko: Of course it doesn't have to be an actual a/c.  Look through some of the old group builds and see what people have done with the various themes.

Ed

Exactly. What I was trying to avoid were things like Lightnings and Phantoms -- but early jet fighters and wacky turboprop conversions of same are perfectly acceptable.  Like I said, a Corsair II is fine, and so forth. Just no supersonic high-performance aircraft. Let's modify Rule 1 to read:

1. This is a build for COIN aircraft and trainers retasked for armed duties. Please bear in mind that a Phantom would NOT make a good COIN aircraft, so no supersonic planes. Essentially this means no aircraft capable of Mach 1 or beyond in level flight; these usually make poor COIN planes anyway. Similarly, any gunship is classified as COIN, as that is their primary purpose. Tank busters too, as these are pretty much COIN out of the box. A-9, A-10, Su-25 -- go nuts.

How 'bout this for an idea?  AC-5D Deathstar: C-5B equipped with 2 x GAU-8A Avengers, 3 x M198 155mm cannons, and a full-blown M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System!!!  At the ranges it could work with the MLRS and M198, it would need a sighting system modified from the AL-1A airborne laser, but the "short-range" weapons could use simpler sighting systems. It could also carry "several" shorter range missile under the wings.  Anybody got a spare C-5 model lying about?

Cheers,
Chuck

Quote from: Acree on January 15, 2009, 06:25:30 PM
How 'bout this for an idea?  AC-5D Deathstar: C-5B equipped with 2 x GAU-8A Avengers, 3 x M198 155mm cannons, and a full-blown M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System!!!  At the ranges it could work with the MLRS and M198, it would need a sighting system modified from the AL-1A airborne laser, but the "short-range" weapons could use simpler sighting systems. It could also carry "several" shorter range missile under the wings.  Anybody got a spare C-5 model lying about?

Cheers,
Chuck

And how exactly would this qualify as a "trainer"???

There's a COIN bit to it too Greg, give the Newb a break! :rolleyes:

Ok - forgot that bit - sorry, my bad!

regards,

Greg

The Hobbycraft Tutor qualifies then yes?

Quote from: Ed S on January 15, 2009, 05:05:24 PM

Quote from: chrisonord on January 15, 2009, 04:55:41 PM
A while back I did a COIN F-84 conversion, with turbo prop, and a 2 seat conversion, and shed load of weaponry.Would this be acceptable if I built another one of these, or does it have to be an actual aircraft as is and not made into something else?
Chris

Chris, this is "WHAT IF".  :wacko: Of course it doesn't have to be an actual a/c.  Look through some of the old group builds and see what people have done with the various themes.

Ed

MARVELOUS!!! I am already on with my build, all I can say is I love Hobbyboss easybuild kits!!!(and Theakstons old Peculier) :cheers:
Chris

Uh, do we have an official GO?

Quote from: philp on January 16, 2009, 04:41:34 PM
Uh, do we have an official GO?

Yeah, has anyone heard anything on the group build schedule? Last I saw, Anthonyp said he was having some real world "issues".  But that was over a month ago.

Ed

Quote from: rallymodeller on January 14, 2009, 06:19:07 PM
Okay, let's get this dog and pony show on the road.

I've had soem time to think about how this should go, and here is my idea:

I'd like to run this GB a little differently than previous GBs -- more like a "mini contest". What I'd like to do is have the entrants send pics in to me via PM, and I will post them anonymously on an "entries" thread. When the contest date has come and gone, I will post all the entries at that time, and voting will then commence.

Does that mean we can't post a build thread, even on Current Projects, because it would destroy the "anonymity"?  :huh:

I like build threads, particularly if I'm stuck and need input/advice/perspective etc......

1. Yes, the Tutor is OK. All trainers are, you just gotta arm them.

2. I've had second thoughts about the anonymous build. Since this isn't a contest, just a GB, go ahead and post. That way I can enter too. There's a T-34 Turbo Mentor at the LHS that's calling my name.

3. Go date -- how about Inauguration Day -- aka this coming Tuesday the 20th. Length TBD, but no more than a month, say.

Agreed?

Sounds good...Im all excited!

Personally I'd like it to be longer, because work is going to turn bad in about a month and may take a lot of modelling time off me. However I'll accept the majority opinion and enter regardless. :thumbsup:

Smythe Aviation is ready to go!

I've got a Kawasaki T-4 sitting on the shelf ready to go.  I can live with starting this Tuesday and going for a month.

Ed

Does anybody make a reasonably good USN Goshawk?

Italeri do one in 1/72 that's oop, but shouldn't be too hard to get hold of.  Collectaire models do a resin kit 1/48, but it's pricey.  Otherwise your only option is to modify the Airfix kit or possibly the Premiere kit.  I'd probably plump for the Airfix!
http://www.collectaire.com/modelpages/t45/t45.html (http://www.collectaire.com/modelpages/t45/t45.html)

i was thinking to modify an Matchbox or Revell hawk kit.
although i am leaning towards a single seat COIN version of the Hawk 100

another aircraft could be the T-38 Talon, ive seen a clip on one of my DVD's of a T-38/F-5B with its rear cockpit window whited out to look like a single seater, not THAT i liked  :wub:

Quote from: Mossie on January 17, 2009, 10:29:42 AM
Italeri do one in 1/72 that's oop, but shouldn't be too hard to get hold of.  Collectaire models do a resin kit 1/48, but it's pricey.  Otherwise your only option is to modify the Airfix kit or possibly the Premiere kit.  I'd probably plump for the Airfix!
http://www.collectaire.com/modelpages/t45/t45.html (http://www.collectaire.com/modelpages/t45/t45.html)

OUCH! $125! No, not unless it was going to a museum. I'll find an Italeri or Airfix; as long as it's close, the paint and weapons will show the changes made.

Just a thought, there was a T-45B proposal for a land based version of the Goshawk, in order to get some into service quicker than the carrier modified T-45A.  From what I can gather, it was basically a common or garden Hawk with a USN cockpit.  That might be an option if you want to avoid some of the mods for the T-45A/C.  One place the Airfix kit can do with a little improvement is the cockpit, so a pair of resin NACES seats would improve it.

Quote from: Nils on January 17, 2009, 10:53:34 AM
another aircraft could be the T-38 Talon, ive seen a clip on one of my DVD's of a T-38/F-5B with its rear cockpit window whited out to look like a single seater, not THAT i liked  :wub:

i managed to get evidence, here are some screens taken from the DVD  :o
now THAT i wanna turn into a COIN plane  :wub:

i know its a tad late, but i just found this and i think it would make a great COIN aircraft  ;D

http://www.phoenixfanjet.net/

it is derived from the Belgian/Italian Promavia Jet Squalus  :mellow:

You mentioned fan Nils, & I immediately thought of the RFB Fantrainer.

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FFantrainer01.jpg&hash=d89e30a825da6b57e0fe638c7e00bafc207f54b8)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FFantrainer02.jpg&hash=0110a433581b8271d7b444822a88aefff4205e02)