Quote from: zenrat on November 06, 2023, 02:33:45 AMGot an e-mail today telling me that Italeri have repopped/are repopping their RAF Jaguar T2.

They must have heard about the GB. 

Quote from: PR19_Kit on November 06, 2023, 04:08:15 AM

Quote from: zenrat on November 06, 2023, 02:33:45 AMGot an e-mail today telling me that Italeri have repopped/are repopping their RAF Jaguar T2.

They must have heard about the GB. 

Exactly my first thought!

Quote from: PR19_Kit on November 06, 2023, 04:08:15 AM

Quote from: zenrat on November 06, 2023, 02:33:45 AMGot an e-mail today telling me that Italeri have repopped/are repopping their RAF Jaguar T2.

They must have heard about the GB. 

Either that or Zenrat has "influence" ? 

Ideas from the Alt New Zealand thread from a few years ago:

Buccaneer:
In real life, South Africa ordered one batch of 16 Buccs, then cancelled an order for another 16 before metal was cut when it became apparent that they'd never be delivered due to the arms embargo. In an alternate timeline, both orders are placed earlier and the second batch are well along when it becomes ppolitically impossible to deliver them. New Zealand offers to take them as a replacement for their Canberras, getting them at a bargain price: essentially they're subsidised by the British government which doesn't want to be seen to be kicking the aircraft industry in the teeth again.

Harrier:
A novel suggestion catches the NZ government's imagination: a force of Harriers that can be deployed abroad using a converted cargo ship or a "simple" amphibious ship in order to operate from an improvised land base in support of UN peacekeeping operations. The ship is NOT any sort of unaffordable "aircraft carrier", it's just an aircraft ferry. Essentially it's a cargo ship with ground support equipment and supplies in it's holds and Harriers & helicopters stowed on deck.

Jaguar:
Nigeria contracted for a batch of Jaguars in the mid 1980s but then fell out with BAe over the support contract. They eventually resolved matters but for several years the Jags were out of service and up for sale. Suppose New Zealand bought them instead of doing the Skyhawk upgrade? They were full spec Jaguar Internationals with the RAF avionics fit and -63 engines and very low hours on them, so they'd have been well worth having, and Jags are notably "deployable" with relatively lean backup, so they'd have been idea for NZ UN peacekeeing ops.

Quote from: Weaver on November 06, 2023, 10:47:58 AMThe ship is NOT any sort of unaffordable "aircraft carrier", it's just an aircraft ferry. Essentially it's a cargo ship with ground support equipment and supplies in it's holds and Harriers & helicopters stowed on deck.

Sounds a good idea, I wonder if our FAA and RAF could use something like that..................? 

Quote from: PR19_Kit on November 06, 2023, 12:18:27 PM

Quote from: Weaver on November 06, 2023, 10:47:58 AMThe ship is NOT any sort of unaffordable "aircraft carrier", it's just an aircraft ferry. Essentially it's a cargo ship with ground support equipment and supplies in it's holds and Harriers & helicopters stowed on deck.

Sounds a good idea, I wonder if our FAA and RAF could use something like that..................? 

Sounds similar to what the RN did with the Atlantic Conveyor several years ago but more permanent.

Quote from: kerick on November 06, 2023, 12:49:34 PM

Quote from: PR19_Kit on November 06, 2023, 12:18:27 PM

Quote from: Weaver on November 06, 2023, 10:47:58 AMThe ship is NOT any sort of unaffordable "aircraft carrier", it's just an aircraft ferry. Essentially it's a cargo ship with ground support equipment and supplies in it's holds and Harriers & helicopters stowed on deck.

Sounds a good idea, I wonder if our FAA and RAF could use something like that..................? 

Sounds similar to what the RN did with the Atlantic Conveyor several years ago but more permanent.

That's exactly what I was referring to.

Sadly she's at the bottom of the South Atlantic now.

As I recall she took the hit instead of the aircraft carrier.

That's probably what happened, but the carriers were quite a way east of where the AC was hit, but she was the largest target around of course.

I've been building a 1/144 scale R/C model of the Atlantic Conveyor for YEARS and have yet to make all that much progress. I have made a lot of 1/144 Harriers and Sea Harriers and MILLIONS of 1/144 scale containers though. 

It's a BIG model ship, maybe 4-5 ft long. 

Quote from: Weaver on November 06, 2023, 10:47:58 AMHarrier:
A novel suggestion catches the NZ government's imagination: a force of Harriers that can be deployed abroad using a converted cargo ship or a "simple" amphibious ship in order to operate from an improvised land base in support of UN peacekeeping operations. The ship is NOT any sort of unaffordable "aircraft carrier", it's just an aircraft ferry. Essentially it's a cargo ship with ground support equipment and supplies in it's holds and Harriers & helicopters stowed on deck.

Something like RFA Argus with a multi-purpose role. Add in a regular capability for supporting diving operations and hydrographic surveys - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNZS_Resolution and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNZS_Manawanui_(2019)

Most likely to be used to move helicopters and medical supplies for earthquake recovery efforts or to support the Antarctic ice base. More bonus points to keep the Auckland politics happy.

Quote from: Nick on November 07, 2023, 04:33:50 AM

Quote from: Weaver on November 06, 2023, 10:47:58 AMHarrier:
A novel suggestion catches the NZ government's imagination: a force of Harriers that can be deployed abroad using a converted cargo ship or a "simple" amphibious ship in order to operate from an improvised land base in support of UN peacekeeping operations. The ship is NOT any sort of unaffordable "aircraft carrier", it's just an aircraft ferry. Essentially it's a cargo ship with ground support equipment and supplies in it's holds and Harriers & helicopters stowed on deck.

Something like RFA Argus with a multi-purpose role. Add in a regular capability for supporting diving operations and hydrographic surveys - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNZS_Resolution and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNZS_Manawanui_(2019)

Most likely to be used to move helicopters and medical supplies for earthquake recovery efforts or to support the Antarctic ice base. More bonus points to keep the Auckland politics happy.

I'm not sure that a ship big enough to move a Harrier detachement would really be suitable for hydrographic survey, since she'd be too big (too much draught) to get into many of the places of interest that you'd want surveyed. Support for very serious (i.e. VERY deep) diving support sounds reasonable, although again, you'd still need smaller vessels for easier, more inshore tasks.

HMS Argus is a good analogy, and she was converted from a merchant ship so she wasn't that expensive. For a smaller version, the Italian San Giorgio class are a good example. One of them was actually paid for by the Italian disaster relief ministry in exchange for one of the class always being available for disaster relief work at a specified notice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Giorgio-class_amphibious_transport_dock

The Argus was originally the MV Contender Bezant, a civilian container ship that was taken into service by the RFA during the Falklands War. A good friend of mine sailed south aboard her, and while he is normally a good sailor, the ship's roll rate was so fast and the frequency so rapid that almost all those aboard were sick the entire trip! 

When the RFA took her over right after 1982 they added a vast amount of ballast, both high up and low down, to increase her moment of inertia to make her more suitable for an aviation training and hospital ship. 

Quote from: PR19_Kit on November 07, 2023, 11:59:02 AMThe Argus was originally the MV Contender Bezant, a civilian container ship that was taken into service by the RFA during the Falklands War. A good friend of mine sailed south aboard her, and while he is normally a good sailor, the ship's roll rate was so fast and the frequency so rapid that almost all those aboard were sick the entire trip! 

When the RFA took her over right after 1982 they added a vast amount of ballast, both high up and low down, to increase her moment of inertia to make her more suitable for an aviation training and hospital ship. 

One of the things they did was turn the dished hatch covers upside down and fill them with 1800 tons of concrete. The other thing was that they built the new, 7-deck high superstructure block out of 8-10mm plate, which added another 800 tons. The conversion cost £63 million in 1984. Her full-load dispacement is 28,000 tons and she could carry 12 Sea Harriers and 6 Sea Kings originally. That's a bit bigger than what I see as the minimum NZ intervention vessel, which would carry 8 Harriers and 2-3 helicopters, preferably a heavy lift type like the Chinook or Sea Stallion. Another thing Argus can do is act as a replenishment ship, transferring fuel by pipe and other stores by helo. That's another synergy that would be very useful for NZ.

You know those great ides you have that would be perfect for a group build like this, but you've already started it/put all the parts into deep storage somewhere/can't find the stuff you need at a sensible price? That's exactly where I am 

Unfortunately my Buccaneer K.3 is too far advanced to be added to this (plus in deep storage somewhere) so that's out. My navalised Jaguars are all in deep storage. I can't find an FA.2 Sea Harrier at a sensible price at the moment and the two I do have that we're for other things....are in deep storage.

Sensing a theme here?

Hopefully this can be rectified before the GB is over!

Sounds like you may need the proper equipment to recover the required kits.
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