Quote from: Weaver on April 27, 2024, 02:19:30 PMMy first thought was English Electric since they had the most experience of high-speed flight and had a raft of high-mach projects such as the P.10:

That's quite a thing! looks like science fiction, where's the air intake, and what engine would power it to multi supersonic speeds, those wings don't appear to be supersonically efficient?

the slot in the front of the entire wing is the intake if im remembering right, with the engine being buried in the wing itself as a ram jet....

Quote from: Steel Penguin on April 28, 2024, 06:32:04 AMthe slot in the front of the entire wing is the intake if im remembering right, with the engine being buried in the wing itself as a ram jet....

Ahhhh, I see! Sort of?

  

Quote from: MikoLee on April 28, 2024, 06:26:27 AM

Quote from: Weaver on April 27, 2024, 02:19:30 PMMy first thought was English Electric since they had the most experience of high-speed flight and had a raft of high-mach projects such as the P.10:

That's quite a thing! looks like science fiction, where's the air intake, and what engine would power it to multi supersonic speeds, those wings don't appear to be supersonically efficient?

The entire wing is a ramjet. Imagine two Starfighter wings, one above the other, close together, and with vertical walls that divide the space between them into square-section cells. Now put ramp "bulges" and fuel burners in the cells, and you have a ramjet wing. For the innermost cell, duct the air instead to a pair of powerful turbojets mounted Voodoo-style in the lower fuselage, and now you have a means of getting up to ramjet ignition speed.

For higher lift at take off and more subsonic range, it had jettisonable outer wing sections (not shown on the model) which were roughly square in planform, a thick aerofoil in cross section, and full of fuel. The canard was also variable geometry. Just for added weirdness, the cockpit canopy was a small as possible to minimize exposure to heat, so the pilot (the aftmost of the three crew) would have his seat drop down into the fuselage once established in mach 3 high-altitude cruise in order to get a full dashboard, navigation being by periscopes and cameras.

It was primarily a recce aircraft, but was also studied with free-fall nuclear bombs, one of these being a radical "bowling ball" shaped weapon, the apparent idea being that the shape removed all the issues and problems assoviated with getting a traditional "finned teardrop" out of the bay and cleany away from the aircraft at mach 3.

EE had a whole series of projects in this vein for bombers and escort fighters, some with different propulsion concepts. One of the fighters replaced the two large turbojets with ten small ones mounted in the wing cells, with bypass ducts taking ramjet air over the top of them. Armamemt was three Genies on an internal rotary launcher.

Quote from: Weaver on April 28, 2024, 10:13:54 AMThe entire wing is a ramjet. Imagine two Starfighter wings, one above the other, close together, and with vertical walls that divide the space between them into square-section cells. Now put ramp "bulges" and fuel burners in the cells, and you have a ramjet wing. For the innermost cell, duct the air instead to a pair of powerful turbojets mounted Voodoo-style in the lower fuselage, and now you have a means of getting up to ramjet ignition speed.

For higher lift at take off and more subsonic range, it had jettisonable outer wing sections (not shown on the model) which were roughly square in planform, a thick aerofoil in cross section, and full of fuel. The canard was also variable geometry. Just for added weirdness, the cockpit canopy was a small as possible to minimize exposure to heat, so the pilot (the aftmost of the three crew) would have his seat drop down into the fuselage once established in mach 3 high-altitude cruise in order to get a full dashboard, navigation being by periscopes and cameras.

It was primarily a recce aircraft, but was also studied with free-fall nuclear bombs, one of these being a radical "bowling ball" shaped weapon, the apparent idea being that the shape removed all the issues and problems assoviated with getting a traditional "finned teardrop" out of the bay and cleany away from the aircraft at mach 3.

EE had a whole series of projects in this vein for bombers and escort fighters, some with different propulsion concepts. One of the fighters replaced the two large turbojets with ten small ones mounted in the wing cells, with bypass ducts taking ramjet air over the top of them. Armamemt was three Genies on an internal rotary launcher.

Wow, seems well ahead of it's time, I wonder if the technology of the time existed for these to go into production?

Weren't 'Genie's' air to air nuclear missiles to bring down formations of Soviet bombers? Seems three might be a bit excessive!

With the problems they had politically with TSR2 it's difficult to see how any of those projects would 'get off the ground' (pun very much intended)

But, that's why we're here, to explore the possibilities of 'what if'

Quote from: Weaver on April 27, 2024, 02:19:30 PMMy first thought was English Electric since they had the most experience of high-speed flight and had a raft of high-mach projects such as the P.10:

That is some serious wow factor especially considering it was a real world design and not just whiff!

Scale model at the RAF museum, Cosford

And it's in blue so there's an option.

Quote from: MikoLee on April 28, 2024, 10:55:18 AMWeren't 'Genie's' air to air nuclear missiles to bring down formations of Soviet bombers? Seems three might be a bit excessive!

Yes and no. The AIR-2A Genie was an unguided air-to-air nuclear rocket. The idea that it was supposed to take down "formations" of Soviet bombers was Cold War propaganda though: the Soviet bombers wern't coming in formations. The real reason for the nuke was to acheive a head-on kill as soon as possible. 1950s electronics weren't capable of getting a missile within the lethal radius of a sensibly-sized HE warhead in that scenario, so the only option was to increase the lethal radius, and a half-kiloton nuke with a lethal radius of 1000ft at 30,000ft altitude would do nicely, thank you.

F-89 Scorpions and F-101B Voodoos carried two Genies each, while the F-106 Delta Dart carried one, but they were all defensive interceptors AND had conventional AAMs (three or four Falcons) as well. For an escort fighter trying to get its bombers all the way to Moscow, three Genies seems a little light to be honest...

Quote from: Weaver on April 28, 2024, 05:11:17 PMF-89 Scorpions and F-101B Voodoos carried two Genies each, while the F-106 Delta Dart carried one, but they were all defensive interceptors AND had conventional AAMs (three or four Falcons) as well. For an escort fighter trying to get its bombers all the way to Moscow, three Genies seems a little light to be honest...

I'm pretty sure I saw a photo if a Lightning with a genie fitted, I suppose now i have to go find it! Ha!

Quote from: kerick on April 28, 2024, 12:11:19 PMAnd it's in blue so there's an option.

English Electric blue was a thing for sure, they used to paint their trains EE blue

Also the prototype Canberra A1 was blue, sometimes described as 'Petter Blue' it's said WEW Petter designer of the Canberra had his car painted in that shade of blue

Here's my Canberra A1

Miko (prototypist!)

Quote from: MikoLee on April 29, 2024, 08:06:42 AM

Quote from: Weaver on April 28, 2024, 05:11:17 PMF-89 Scorpions and F-101B Voodoos carried two Genies each, while the F-106 Delta Dart carried one, but they were all defensive interceptors AND had conventional AAMs (three or four Falcons) as well. For an escort fighter trying to get its bombers all the way to Moscow, three Genies seems a little light to be honest...

I'm pretty sure I saw a photo if a Lightning with a genie fitted, I suppose now i have to go find it! Ha!

I don't know if they ever got as far as test-fitting one, but the RAF certainly wanted it, for all the same reasons as the USAF. What knocked it on the head was the political requirement for any UK nuclear weapon to use British fissile material, and the low quantities of fissile material that the UK nuclear programme was producing. Basically, we only had enough for our strategic deterrence weapons in the 1950s and couldn't spare any for defensive/tactical ones. Then when more because available in the late 1960s, tactical nuclear bombs like WE.177 got the priority for it. The same shortage also killed the nuclear-armed version of the Ikara ASW missile.

Been there, done this.  A good twenty years back, although mine was an AMT boxing.   It's a vile, ill fitting parcel of dog turds and an absolute nightmare to store and transport.

No photos as I don't have the model any longer.  It resides in Canada with my cousin and the TSR2 I did for him.  In Anti-flash white, IIRC I gave it Victor markings from an old SAM sheet.

Quote from: Weaver on April 29, 2024, 11:03:08 AMI don't know if they ever got as far as test-fitting one,

I remember a small black and white photo with caption of 'Genie nuclear missile' I had no idea what it was

I think it may have been the book

English Electric/British Aircraft Corporation Lightning by Bryan Philpott

Miko

Actually, reading this discussion has made me dust off my own Italeri XB-70 kit. It's now in the pending pile! . I've built two previously. It takes a bit of effort but, I don't mind that and, it's certainly a very impressive looking model once built. None of the assembly issues are insurmountable and, for those that like to whine about the kit, you should try the old Contrail 1/72 vac form kit. Building the Italeri kit was a piece of cake by comparison!