Quote from: DogfighterZen on July 24, 2024, 04:20:28 PM

Quote from: The Wooksta! on July 24, 2024, 08:56:50 AMI was talking post 2006 split with Hornby owning the Airfix tools and the Heller ones remaining in France.

I knew that Humbrol owned both the Heller and Airfix brands (and ESCI at one point in the 80s) and Heller did the tooling for the 1989 Buccaneer S2, the 1990 Tucson and Eurofighter.

Ok, thought you meant earlier, Lee. Still, according to Scalemates, the last time Airfix released the Puma was in 2004 and Heller's was in 2008.
The Gazelle may have a different story cause Heller's last was between 2005 and 2008 and Airfix's was in 2012 so, these two may be a perfect example of what Mossie was saying regarding some of Airfix's moulds staying in France. Maybe the Puma stayed with Heller and the Gazelle went back to Airfix after 2006.
Anyway, i think it's about time someone came out with new moulds of these two helos... Airfix would be fine but i believe Italeri or even Revell could produce good kits of these birds. Special Hobby also comes to mind.

A new-tool Gazelle could open up a lot of options:

The AAC scout versions had an APX 397 roof-mounted sight, which wasn't in the Airfix kit.

Some of the French ones had 4 x HOT ATGWs, while others had a 20mm GIAT M621 cannon on one side and 2 x Mistral AAMs on the other.

For the Falklands, AAC Gazelles were quickly modified with a weapon beam to carry two six-round pods of 68mm SNEB rockets.

Yugoslav ones had a similar beam with 4 x AT-3 Sagger ATGWs on it.

I've seen huge layouts of weapons around Gazelles, but I don't know how many were either cleared or bought by a customer. To make any of the above weapon options possible, it would be neccessary to mould the cabin with separate rear doors and rear seats, neither of which is the case in the Airfix kit. Then you'd probably have alternate doors with a hole in them for the beam.

Quote from: Weaver on July 24, 2024, 04:36:54 PMA new-tool Gazelle could open up a lot of options:

The AAC scout versions had an APX 397 roof-mounted sight, which wasn't in the Airfix kit.

Some of the French ones had 4 x HOT ATGWs, while others had a 20mm GIAT M621 cannon on one side and 2 x Mistral AAMs on the other.

For the Falklands, AAC Gazelles were quickly modified with a weapon beam to carry two six-round pods of 68mm SNEB rockets.

Yugoslav ones had a similar beam with 4 x AT-3 Sagger ATGWs on it.

I've seen huge layouts of weapons around Gazelles, but I don't know how many were either cleared or bought by a customer. To make any of the above weapon options possible, it would be neccessary to mould the cabin with separate rear doors and rear seats, neither of which is the case in the Airfix kit. Then you'd probably have alternate doors with a hole in them for the beam.

Those options would be so cool to have in a styrene kit. 
The Heller 1/72 gazelle kits did have a different clear part for the left roof window with a sensor on it and a new sprue with antennas and two TOW(?) missile pods for each side.
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-80284-aerospatiale-sa342m-gazelle--120944

Quote from: DogfighterZen on July 24, 2024, 04:48:29 PM

Quote from: Weaver on July 24, 2024, 04:36:54 PMA new-tool Gazelle could open up a lot of options:

The AAC scout versions had an APX 397 roof-mounted sight, which wasn't in the Airfix kit.

Some of the French ones had 4 x HOT ATGWs, while others had a 20mm GIAT M621 cannon on one side and 2 x Mistral AAMs on the other.

For the Falklands, AAC Gazelles were quickly modified with a weapon beam to carry two six-round pods of 68mm SNEB rockets.

Yugoslav ones had a similar beam with 4 x AT-3 Sagger ATGWs on it.

I've seen huge layouts of weapons around Gazelles, but I don't know how many were either cleared or bought by a customer. To make any of the above weapon options possible, it would be neccessary to mould the cabin with separate rear doors and rear seats, neither of which is the case in the Airfix kit. Then you'd probably have alternate doors with a hole in them for the beam.

Those options would be so cool to have in a styrene kit. 
The Heller 1/72 gazelle kits did have a different clear part for the left roof window with a sensor on it and a new sprue with antennas and two TOW(?) missile pods for each side.
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-80284-aerospatiale-sa342m-gazelle--120944

Okay so I've just had a look at photos of the Heller sprues:

They have a whole new clear sprue with the APX-397 sight moulded into the roof panel (the roof is one piece on both kits).

There's an extra sprue which has left and right HOT missiles and beams all moulded in one piece, the interior part of the sight, and the big vertical aerials on the front of the canopy.

(I was wrong about the weapon beam: it goes through the fuselage behind the door, not through it.)

The left and right HOT mouldings fit into D-shaped holes in the fuselage to get them aligned correctly. Interestingly, these holes, lightly blanked off, are present on the Airfix kit, which means Airfix made provision for weapons from the start.

Quote from: NARSES2 on July 24, 2024, 06:02:22 AM

Quote from: PR19_Kit on July 23, 2024, 02:17:35 PMSome of us are OLDER than their moulds anyway....................

Very true   

Quote from: Beermonster58 on July 24, 2024, 12:05:55 AMCompared very favourably to the Historex range of 54mm figures and, considerably cheaper! I've also got the Airfix Polish Lancer and, Scots Grey kicking around somewhere.

Another name from the past. Your right they did compare very well, but Historex to some extent had cornered the market and aquired a name as being the brand for the "serious" figure modeller/painter who didn't want to go down the lead figure route. As far as I know Historex didn't go beyond the Napoleonic era ? Not sure at all as by then I'd mainly gone down the wargame scale path.

All of the Historex figures I had were from that period in history so, I think you may be right. Outside of a few specialist shops though, I don't think they were widely available. I certainly couldn't get them in Edinburgh unless I used mail order so, Airfix figures were the ones generally available. Pity they didn't release more of the 1/12 scale kits though. The French Grenadier and, Bengal Lancer are stupidly priced second hand so, I'd love to see them in the vintage classics range.

Historex is still available.

In the UK from Historex Agents in Dover:
Historex Product Gallery

Historex Special Order

Historex Spare Parts

There is also the Historex company site:
Historex

Of course there is the thing that the Historex 54mm kits are 1/30th rather than 1/32nd.

Quote from: jcf on July 25, 2024, 12:11:11 AMHistorex is still available.

In the UK from Historex Agents in Dover:
Historex Product Gallery

Historex Special Order

Historex Spare Parts

There is also the Historex company site:
Historex

Of course there is the thing that the Historex 54mm kits are 1/30th rather than 1/32nd.

So, same place they've always been. Thanks for that info Jon  Mind you I shouldn't have clicked on that link and then looked at the Historex range. It's set "something" a stirring in my brain    Must keep reminding myself I can't paint anywhere near to the standard they've been done to nowadays   

As for scale. 54mm was the "classic" figure painters scale and that's the market they were aimed at, and presumably still are.

Quote from: NARSES2 on July 25, 2024, 12:48:55 AM

Quote from: jcf on July 25, 2024, 12:11:11 AMHistorex is still available.

In the UK from Historex Agents in Dover:
Historex Product Gallery

Historex Special Order

Historex Spare Parts

There is also the Historex company site:
Historex

Of course there is the thing that the Historex 54mm kits are 1/30th rather than 1/32nd.

So, same place they've always been. Thanks for that info Jon  Mind you I shouldn't have clicked on that link and then looked at the Historex range. It's set "something" a stirring in my brain    Must keep reminding myself I can't paint anywhere near to the standard they've been done to nowadays 

As for scale. 54mm was the "classic" figure painters scale and that's the market they were aimed at, and presumably still are.

That's because they stuck with the from ground to eye level measurement but others went for the 
from ground to top of head measure, thus 54mm became equivalent to 1/32nd in most ranges.

Classic figure scales are as much fun as classic model railroad scales and guages.

Quote from: jcf on July 25, 2024, 01:41:56 AMThat's because they stuck with the from ground to eye level measurement but others went for the
from ground to top of head measure, thus 54mm became equivalent to 1/32nd in most ranges.

Classic figure scales are as much fun as classic model railroad scales and guages.

If you want some real "fun" Jon, then take a look at wargames figures scales    15mm/20mm/25mm/1 inch Jack Scruby in the States/30mm. Most ranges "grew" so they could get more detail. So 15mm became 18mm, 25mm became 28mm and so forth, and that's only the ones I have personal experience of    And yes the argument was over whether you should take the measurement from base to eye or top of the head/hat/helmet. Obviously base to eye is sensible, but did that ever stop anyone from doing it differently ? In the end you could very seldom mix ranges. Which of course was the whole purpose 

Oh and then you have the scales used by German "Flat" maunfacturers - 30mm through 45mm and French "half round" producers. No idea what they were as I only ever read about them.

Quote from: jcf on July 25, 2024, 12:11:11 AMHistorex is still available.

In the UK from Historex Agents in Dover:
Historex Product Gallery

Historex Special Order

Historex Spare Parts

There is also the Historex company site:
Historex

Of course there is the thing that the Historex 54mm kits are 1/30th rather than 1/32nd.

Appreciate the info .
I had a look at the site and, regretted it instantly!   . They're still quite expensive but, I may have to treat myself regardless!

Quote from: Weaver on July 24, 2024, 04:36:54 PM

Quote from: DogfighterZen on July 24, 2024, 04:20:28 PM

Quote from: The Wooksta! on July 24, 2024, 08:56:50 AMI was talking post 2006 split with Hornby owning the Airfix tools and the Heller ones remaining in France.

I knew that Humbrol owned both the Heller and Airfix brands (and ESCI at one point in the 80s) and Heller did the tooling for the 1989 Buccaneer S2, the 1990 Tucson and Eurofighter.

Ok, thought you meant earlier, Lee. Still, according to Scalemates, the last time Airfix released the Puma was in 2004 and Heller's was in 2008.
The Gazelle may have a different story cause Heller's last was between 2005 and 2008 and Airfix's was in 2012 so, these two may be a perfect example of what Mossie was saying regarding some of Airfix's moulds staying in France. Maybe the Puma stayed with Heller and the Gazelle went back to Airfix after 2006.
Anyway, i think it's about time someone came out with new moulds of these two helos... Airfix would be fine but i believe Italeri or even Revell could produce good kits of these birds. Special Hobby also comes to mind.

A new-tool Gazelle could open up a lot of options:

The AAC scout versions had an APX 397 roof-mounted sight, which wasn't in the Airfix kit.

Some of the French ones had 4 x HOT ATGWs, while others had a 20mm GIAT M621 cannon on one side and 2 x Mistral AAMs on the other.

For the Falklands, AAC Gazelles were quickly modified with a weapon beam to carry two six-round pods of 68mm SNEB rockets.

Yugoslav ones had a similar beam with 4 x AT-3 Sagger ATGWs on it.

I've seen huge layouts of weapons around Gazelles, but I don't know how many were either cleared or bought by a customer. To make any of the above weapon options possible, it would be neccessary to mould the cabin with separate rear doors and rear seats, neither of which is the case in the Airfix kit. Then you'd probably have alternate doors with a hole in them for the beam.

Plus of course Blue Thunder.   

Quote from: jcf on July 25, 2024, 12:11:11 AMHistorex is still available.

In the UK from Historex Agents in Dover:
Historex Product Gallery

Historex Special Order

Historex Spare Parts

There is also the Historex company site:
Historex

Of course there is the thing that the Historex 54mm kits are 1/30th rather than 1/32nd.

Quote from: jcf on July 25, 2024, 01:41:56 AM

Quote from: NARSES2 on July 25, 2024, 12:48:55 AM

Quote from: jcf on July 25, 2024, 12:11:11 AMHistorex is still available.

In the UK from Historex Agents in Dover:
Historex Product Gallery

Historex Special Order

Historex Spare Parts

There is also the Historex company site:
Historex

Of course there is the thing that the Historex 54mm kits are 1/30th rather than 1/32nd.

So, same place they've always been. Thanks for that info Jon  Mind you I shouldn't have clicked on that link and then looked at the Historex range. It's set "something" a stirring in my brain    Must keep reminding myself I can't paint anywhere near to the standard they've been done to nowadays 

As for scale. 54mm was the "classic" figure painters scale and that's the market they were aimed at, and presumably still are.

That's because they stuck with the from ground to eye level measurement but others went for the
from ground to top of head measure, thus 54mm became equivalent to 1/32nd in most ranges.

Classic figure scales are as much fun as classic model railroad scales and guages.

the eye level or not measurement causes no end of problems

the airfix 54mm figures arent standard scale the mounted figures are closer to 1/32 and the foot figures are closer to 1/35 ( ive got about 250 foot figure conversions )

historex are 1/30 but are handy as you can order spare parts like swords etc

Quote from: Weaver on July 24, 2024, 05:24:15 PM

Quote from: DogfighterZen on July 24, 2024, 04:48:29 PMThose options would be so cool to have in a styrene kit. 
The Heller 1/72 gazelle kits did have a different clear part for the left roof window with a sensor on it and a new sprue with antennas and two TOW(?) missile pods for each side.
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-80284-aerospatiale-sa342m-gazelle--120944

Okay so I've just had a look at photos of the Heller sprues:

They have a whole new clear sprue with the APX-397 sight moulded into the roof panel (the roof is one piece on both kits).

There's an extra sprue which has left and right HOT missiles and beams all moulded in one piece, the interior part of the sight, and the big vertical aerials on the front of the canopy.

(I was wrong about the weapon beam: it goes through the fuselage behind the door, not through it.)

The left and right HOT mouldings fit into D-shaped holes in the fuselage to get them aligned correctly. Interestingly, these holes, lightly blanked off, are present on the Airfix kit, which means Airfix made provision for weapons from the start.

Yup, there's also the round and flat area on the exterior where the beams go, you can see them in this photo of my build.
Like i said, it would be nice to see this one selling again but a modern tooling would be most welcome.



I had the Airfix kit so i had to scratchbuild everything that the Heller kit came with except for the antennas but chose to give it the M134 miniguns and only a pair of HOT missiles.

Quote from: zenrat on July 25, 2024, 02:59:17 AM

Quote from: Weaver on July 24, 2024, 04:36:54 PM

Quote from: DogfighterZen on July 24, 2024, 04:20:28 PM

Quote from: The Wooksta! on July 24, 2024, 08:56:50 AMI was talking post 2006 split with Hornby owning the Airfix tools and the Heller ones remaining in France.

I knew that Humbrol owned both the Heller and Airfix brands (and ESCI at one point in the 80s) and Heller did the tooling for the 1989 Buccaneer S2, the 1990 Tucson and Eurofighter.

Ok, thought you meant earlier, Lee. Still, according to Scalemates, the last time Airfix released the Puma was in 2004 and Heller's was in 2008.
The Gazelle may have a different story cause Heller's last was between 2005 and 2008 and Airfix's was in 2012 so, these two may be a perfect example of what Mossie was saying regarding some of Airfix's moulds staying in France. Maybe the Puma stayed with Heller and the Gazelle went back to Airfix after 2006.
Anyway, i think it's about time someone came out with new moulds of these two helos... Airfix would be fine but i believe Italeri or even Revell could produce good kits of these birds. Special Hobby also comes to mind.

A new-tool Gazelle could open up a lot of options:

The AAC scout versions had an APX 397 roof-mounted sight, which wasn't in the Airfix kit.

Some of the French ones had 4 x HOT ATGWs, while others had a 20mm GIAT M621 cannon on one side and 2 x Mistral AAMs on the other.

For the Falklands, AAC Gazelles were quickly modified with a weapon beam to carry two six-round pods of 68mm SNEB rockets.

Yugoslav ones had a similar beam with 4 x AT-3 Sagger ATGWs on it.

I've seen huge layouts of weapons around Gazelles, but I don't know how many were either cleared or bought by a customer. To make any of the above weapon options possible, it would be neccessary to mould the cabin with separate rear doors and rear seats, neither of which is the case in the Airfix kit. Then you'd probably have alternate doors with a hole in them for the beam.

Plus of course Blue Thunder. 

Obviously...  

Quote from: DogfighterZen on July 25, 2024, 04:20:47 AM

Quote from: Weaver on July 24, 2024, 05:24:15 PM

Quote from: DogfighterZen on July 24, 2024, 04:48:29 PMThose options would be so cool to have in a styrene kit. 
The Heller 1/72 gazelle kits did have a different clear part for the left roof window with a sensor on it and a new sprue with antennas and two TOW(?) missile pods for each side.
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/heller-80284-aerospatiale-sa342m-gazelle--120944

Okay so I've just had a look at photos of the Heller sprues:

They have a whole new clear sprue with the APX-397 sight moulded into the roof panel (the roof is one piece on both kits).

There's an extra sprue which has left and right HOT missiles and beams all moulded in one piece, the interior part of the sight, and the big vertical aerials on the front of the canopy.

(I was wrong about the weapon beam: it goes through the fuselage behind the door, not through it.)

The left and right HOT mouldings fit into D-shaped holes in the fuselage to get them aligned correctly. Interestingly, these holes, lightly blanked off, are present on the Airfix kit, which means Airfix made provision for weapons from the start.

Yup, there's also the round and flat area on the exterior where the beams go, you can see them in this photo of my build.
Like i said, it would be nice to see this one selling again but a modern tooling would be most welcome.



I had the Airfix kit so i had to scratchbuild everything that the Heller kit came with except for the antennas but chose to give it the M134 miniguns and only a pair of HOT missiles.

Nice one!

One problem with the Heller kit is that all the exterior parts of the roof sight are moulded in with the glazing, but some Gazelle's have different sights. Off the top of the my head, I think the Frdnch ones now have a sight called Viviane with IR capability, and export customers might have different ones again.

Quote from: Weaver on July 25, 2024, 02:38:08 PMOne problem with the Heller kit is that all the exterior parts of the roof sight are moulded in with the glazing, but some Gazelle's have different sights. Off the top of the my head, I think the Frdnch ones now have a sight called Viviane with IR capability, and export customers might have different ones again.

Yes, i've seen it on some French Gazelles, a rather bulky thing. I believe i've also seen another more modern one with another user. I went with the older ones on my build, just a few bits of scrap styrene, cut to size and shaped to resemble the real thing, glued on the port side top window.