I have rekindled my fetish for all things mirage again, and I have been looking at the Avon powered Mirage iii offered to Australia. I have a couple more PM mirages left, a Dagger and a Nesher, one of which I am thinking could be prime fodder for a bit of surgery. I have been scouring the internet for aftermarket Avon burner cans, in 72nd scale, but to no avail, so a spare draken rear end grafted on could be the way forward. I got the vernier calipers out and measured both the mirage fuselage and the draken part and it looks like, with a bit of fettling, it could work. I am thinking that the Avon mirage became a production variant, and mine of course would be in the service of a certain south American country I have done an alternative air force for. The PM kit is drastically bland and needs work to make something good from it, but they reasonably cheap.

Cheap kits are our bread and butter. Always the ideal thing to use as the basis for a bit of kit bashing.

Quote from: Gondor on August 23, 2024, 02:11:47 PMCheap kits are our bread and butter. Always the ideal thing to use as the basis for a bit of kit bashing.

Thing is, I remember when, and it wasn't that long ago you could pick this kits up for £3.50 each. I should have bought more and stashed them.

The PM Mirages/Daggers/Neshers are pretty poor kits, but as you say ideal for chopping up and rearranging.

The Avon in the Draken used an afterburner that was designed and made in Sweden.
It's doubtful that production Avon powered Mirage would have had a nozzle/tailcone like the Draken.

Avon equipped Mirage IIIO-1 "City of Hobart".
Mirage IIIO-1 'City of Hobart'

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"City of Hobart" was a modified IIIC.
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Aside from having the longer rear fuselage of the IIIC it doesn't look all that much different from the  standard ATAR engined IIIE based Mirage used by the RAAF.
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This is whiff-world JCF, and if it fits, it sits right?
I have seen those pictures before, and read all about the aircraft and what could have been. Maybe in an alternative universe Saab got involved too.

Okey dokey.
Are you going to keep the Draken tail-wheel? 

Quote from: jcf on August 24, 2024, 02:58:56 PMOkey dokey.
Are you going to keep the Draken tail-wheel?

No, as the mirage sits higher, and the tail wheel is on the Draken. The mirage will have some of its rear fuselagecut away to accomodate the new part also.

I've read in some sources that the Avon-Mirage's intakes would have been bigger. They don't look bigger in the pics, but then neither do a Kfir's unless you look at them side-by-side with a Mirage III's. It was also the case that the IIIO as tested was disappointing, and that makes me wonder whether the aircraft used the standard Mirage III intakes and they were choking the engine.

My ideas for making a production Avon-Mirage are to either use a Kfir kit's intakes on a Mirage III kit, or if they won't go on easily, then use the Mirage III's radar nose and long tail on the Kfir fuselage.

Quote from: Weaver on August 25, 2024, 02:22:02 AMI've read in some sources that the Avon-Mirage's intakes would have been bigger. They don't look bigger in the pics, but then neither do a Kfir's unless you look at them side-by-side with a Mirage III's. It was also the case that the IIIO as tested was disappointing, and that makes me wonder whether the aircraft used the standard Mirage III intakes and they were choking the engine.

My ideas for making a production Avon-Mirage are to either use a Kfir kit's intakes on a Mirage III kit, or if they won't go on easily, then use the Mirage III's radar nose and long tail on the Kfir fuselage.

That sounds like a good plan Harold, looking forward to seeing that if it comes to fruition. As an evolved version, you could do all sorts of variations, and a possibly an Avon Kfir, if they were unable to acquire engines from the U.S, maybe they could get their hands on the Avon  or some blueprints and build it themselves.

Quote from: chrisonord on August 25, 2024, 06:04:34 AM

Quote from: Weaver on August 25, 2024, 02:22:02 AMI've read in some sources that the Avon-Mirage's intakes would have been bigger. They don't look bigger in the pics, but then neither do a Kfir's unless you look at them side-by-side with a Mirage III's. It was also the case that the IIIO as tested was disappointing, and that makes me wonder whether the aircraft used the standard Mirage III intakes and they were choking the engine.

My ideas for making a production Avon-Mirage are to either use a Kfir kit's intakes on a Mirage III kit, or if they won't go on easily, then use the Mirage III's radar nose and long tail on the Kfir fuselage.

That sounds like a good plan Harold, looking forward to seeing that if it comes to fruition. As an evolved version, you could do all sorts of variations, and a possibly an Avon Kfir, if they were unable to acquire engines from the U.S, maybe they could get their hands on the Avon  or some blueprints and build it themselves.

Yeah that'd be interesting. It'd still have the long tail because the Avon was longer than the J-79. You could add/keep the canards and maybe use the fin with the intake since the afterburner would presumably need cooling.

Another issue with all these ideas is why wing to use. The Mirage III/5/50/Avon etc... all used the notched wing with a straight leading edge, but the Kfir had an extended outboard leading edge that created a dogtooth.

Quote from: Weaver on August 25, 2024, 12:06:42 PM

Quote from: chrisonord on August 25, 2024, 06:04:34 AM

Quote from: Weaver on August 25, 2024, 02:22:02 AMI've read in some sources that the Avon-Mirage's intakes would have been bigger. They don't look bigger in the pics, but then neither do a Kfir's unless you look at them side-by-side with a Mirage III's. It was also the case that the IIIO as tested was disappointing, and that makes me wonder whether the aircraft used the standard Mirage III intakes and they were choking the engine.

My ideas for making a production Avon-Mirage are to either use a Kfir kit's intakes on a Mirage III kit, or if they won't go on easily, then use the Mirage III's radar nose and long tail on the Kfir fuselage.

That sounds like a good plan Harold, looking forward to seeing that if it comes to fruition. As an evolved version, you could do all sorts of variations, and a possibly an Avon Kfir, if they were unable to acquire engines from the U.S, maybe they could get their hands on the Avon  or some blueprints and build it themselves.

Yeah that'd be interesting. It'd still have the long tail because the Avon was longer than the J-79. You could add/keep the canards and maybe use the fin with the intake since the afterburner would presumably need cooling.

Another issue with all these ideas is why wing to use. The Mirage III/5/50/Avon etc... all used the notched wing with a straight leading edge, but the Kfir had an extended outboard leading edge that created a dogtooth.

I think either would still work, but keeping the Kfir exterior details the same as the real one, and then altering the fuselage to suit, only in length, as the space around the engine had it been already built to house the J79, could be used to house other gubbins. Possible scenario,  Israel acquired the blueprints to make the mirage ii, and did so in various forms, but using the Avon, which was also acqured either under the table, or via espionage.when Israel wanted ti upgrade to a more modern multi role aircraft, ie the Kfr, they initially were able to get their mitts on the J 79's. But, that fell through, so an upgraded Avon was then stuck in the vacant powerplant orrifice.

Quote from: Weaver on August 25, 2024, 12:06:42 PM

Quote from: chrisonord on August 25, 2024, 06:04:34 AM

Quote from: Weaver on August 25, 2024, 02:22:02 AMI've read in some sources that the Avon-Mirage's intakes would have been bigger. They don't look bigger in the pics, but then neither do a Kfir's unless you look at them side-by-side with a Mirage III's. It was also the case that the IIIO as tested was disappointing, and that makes me wonder whether the aircraft used the standard Mirage III intakes and they were choking the engine.

My ideas for making a production Avon-Mirage are to either use a Kfir kit's intakes on a Mirage III kit, or if they won't go on easily, then use the Mirage III's radar nose and long tail on the Kfir fuselage.

That sounds like a good plan Harold, looking forward to seeing that if it comes to fruition. As an evolved version, you could do all sorts of variations, and a possibly an Avon Kfir, if they were unable to acquire engines from the U.S, maybe they could get their hands on the Avon  or some blueprints and build it themselves.

Yeah that'd be interesting. It'd still have the long tail because the Avon was longer than the J-79. You could add/keep the canards and maybe use the fin with the intake since the afterburner would presumably need cooling.

Another issue with all these ideas is why wing to use. The Mirage III/5/50/Avon etc... all used the notched wing with a straight leading edge, but the Kfir had an extended outboard leading edge that created a dogtooth.

The Avon is considerably shorter than the J79. The Avon used in the EE Lightning is 138" long, the J79-GE-17 used in the F-4 is 208.69" long. 
This is because the Avon "engine" and the afterburner are two separate assemblies, unlike the J79 where its all of a piece from intake to nozzle.

With the Avon you can say that the afterburner is whatever length you want.

Quote from: jcf on August 24, 2024, 10:33:28 AMThe Avon in the Draken used an afterburner that was designed and made in Sweden.
It's doubtful that production Avon powered Mirage would have had a nozzle/tailcone like the Draken.

"In an effort to save money and time, it was decided to use the afterburner already developed for the Saab Draken..." Any pack of lies backstory can explain away such things. 

Exactly. 

Kit's 2nd Rule applies.