Right. Beware of lots of blah blah and pics. And do note that in the end, I'm very much aware of that I paint as I like, so maybe all of this is a bit over ambitious, but bear with me airing some thoughts. It actually helps me to reason in text.

The Luftwaffe Norm 83 seems not to be quite as German standardised as perhaps expected. Looking at different Norm 83 scheme descriptions, some give different hues. Look f.i at this Starfighter, giving the darker green as RAL 6014 Gelboliv



Then looking at this 1987 photo of one Zipper in Norm 72, that definitely was gelboliv, and one in Norm 83, the dark greens look close or even the same which would support the colour call above.



Then again, looking at this Tornado Norm 83 call, it replaces the RAL 6014 with the American F.S.34079 Leaf green.



Having a comparative look on the US camo schemes, the two greens used in both the ubiquitous SEA scheme and the Europe One scheme are given as the F.S. 34102, which can be translated to RAL 6003, which incidentally is the lighter green found in both the German schemes above, and the above mentioned F.S. 34079. Looking at photos, I think this view is supported, at least for the RF-4E and the Tornado which look very much like the American F-4E's I've compared with.





On the Starfighter, however, it seems to me that there's a little more contrast between the two greens. Also, the darker green seems just a little bit browner than on the Tornado/Phantom. Having made a paint sample on an old scrapped Hunter, I'm still somewhat undecided. Whereas the Gelboliv I can find (Hu155) definitely is both too light and too brown, the NATO olive, or as you pie eaters call is, B.S. 641 Dark Green, looks about right on the model, if we're talking Starfighter Norm 83, translating into Hu163/Hu117. Going for the call-outs for the Rf-4/Tornado scheme, Hu116/Hu117 looks pretty much spot on, if quite warm green. Comparing with a photo of a Norm 72 Starfighter or Phantom together with any DSG/DG RAF tactical aircraft, though, the gelboliv there is not anywhere near the British green.
It's all very confusing, actually..

Maybe I should paint the other side of the Hunter Norm 72 to get a feeling for whether the Gelboliv I have is right or totally off the chart. And maybe I should try to get the Revell Gelboliv (R42) for further comparison. Hmm..

Oh, the blackgrey RAL 6021 from Revell (R08) is spot on, btw. That's one hue sorted at least.. 

Nice ! Always loved that scheme. We have been lucky enough to have seen plenty of German Tornado's and F-4s at airshows here in the 90s, as they always seemed to be up in Goose Bay and loved to show off ! One Sunday afternoon at the Selfridge open House, late 80s or early 90s, two of each blasted off after the show to head back North. They laid a beating on that airfield it was awesome !

Quote from: Pellson on August 23, 2022, 07:00:07 AMIt actually helps me to reason in text.

I know exactly what you mean sir 

Quote from: Pellson on August 23, 2022, 07:00:07 AMMaybe I should paint the other side of the Hunter Norm 72 to get a feeling for whether the Gelboliv I have is right or totally off the chart. And maybe I should try to get the Revell Gelboliv (R42) for further comparison. Hmm..

Went to the LMS and stashed up on Revell enamels just to get home to a power outage. Ah, well.. there'll be other days to paint..

..and look at this, found over at the very well set up Tornado SIG site:



RAL 6003 equals Hu86, or R361, indeed. I do say..

Well - that scrap Hunter seems to be up for another paint job or two. That's for sure..

Useful find 

Shame about the power cut, but it might be something a few of us will need to get used to over the coming winter 

Electing to go with lust rather than must, I actually did get some painting done today. Originally intending only to repaint that scrap Hunter with the different Norm 83 options, I realised that while waiting for the enamels to dry enough for varnish ( I think I get a better idea of final result after varnish), I could as well start off with the four German interceptors that has been sitting around for a while, mostly built. So out with the Norm 81 hues chosen (see p 38 in this thread) and onwards!

As this day now draws to an end, there's three MiG's and one Starfighter sitting on my desk, waiting to dry. Tomorrow, if my mojo still is active, there's only the Steingrau sides left, and then I have to decide whether to go with the Silbergrau originally proposed for this version of the Norm 81 scheme, or whether to modify a bit, letting the Steingrau go down under as well. Looking at the enamel tins, right now I think the latter. We'll see.

I also varnished up the Hunter, so tomorrow I'll try to decide on which hues to use for my Luftwaffe strike group. I actually did paint one side Norm 72 Gelboliv/Basaltgrau and that was a good call, really ruling that scheme out. So Norm 83 it is, in one form or another.

I find brush painting camo on 1/72 airframes very restful.  Do you mark the demarkations first with a pencil (or similar) or just eyeball it?

Quote from: zenrat on August 26, 2022, 05:54:58 AMI find brush painting camo on 1/72 airframes very restful.  Do you mark the demarkations first with a pencil (or similar) or just eyeball it?

It depends, actually. On my Valiant K.1, I even masked the demarcation lines, but generally I just eyeball it. In particular wraparound schemes which, actually, in real life mostly were eyeballed on the actual plane as well.
On these German fighters, I definitely eyeball even if it isn't a full wrap. Looking at in-service aircraft, tbh it looks as if the techies were pretty drunk when whipping out the sprayguns anyway, so I just decide on a basic pattern and then go by hand. Look at this F-4F, f.i. Not a straight or planned line... 



Regarding the interceptor Norm 81 scheme, I've found that I need to change the original plan a little bit. Still aiming for the more colourful retro scheme of the F-4F 38+33 rather than Dizzy's more realistic and "dirty" schemes (also motivated as I'm neither good at nor fond of weathering my models), trying the hues on an actual model brought these changes:

Upper sides:
RAL 7009 Grüngrau = Humbrol 31
RAL 7012 Basaltgrau = Humbrol 145 144
RAL 7037 Staubgrau = Humbrol 127 128
RAL 7039 Quarzgrau = Humbrol 251

Fuselage sides/fin:
RAL 7030 Steingrau = Humbrol 64

Lower sides:
RAL 7001 Silbergrau = 166 RAL 7030 Steingrau = Humbrol 64
RAL 7009 Grüngrau = Humbrol 31

It should be noted that while the two first changes are due to me finding the previous hues too light, the last change is because I liked it better this way. Also, it seems as most of the Phantoms actually didn't get the Silbergrau/Grungrau bottoms, but rather Steingrau/Lichtgrau. But I want the green belly, so I'll cheat..

Originally, I was a bit afraid that this scheme should come out too dark for interceptor work, but seeing it "live", and put beside a Mirage 2000 and an air-to-air painted Dutch NF-5A, it isn't that bad at all. Rather, the scheme does bring out the green, brown and blue hues I was aiming at, producing an unusually colourful interceptor without being too garish.
So far, so good. Let's just hope I'm equally satisfied after varnishes and decals. 

As for the low level Norm 83 scheme, the poor Hunter remains are now twice as heavy as three days ago, considering all the paint that's gone onto it. And I'm still not fully decided on which colours to go for. Either I think I'll use Revell 42/Humbrol 117 (darker feeling) or Humbrol 116/Revell 361 (lighter). Decisions, decisions..

Another week almost done. Tomorrow, we're leaving for a wedding in Denmark, so no more work nor modelling until Tuesday. But I can live with that.
More annoying is that I can't seem to get the sodding Defender 110 back on track, so we have to go in the Jaguar. While that doesn't sound too bad, this isn't the biggest of Jags, so five persons will fill it up indeed. There will be quite some moaning and groaning about sore backs and lack of legroom, methinks..

The Luftwaffe fighter sqn is coming along nicely, even if things, as always when I'm involved, takes a shedload of time. I'm done with the camouflage, now focusing on details such as antennae, exhaust etc. And that takes even more time as this unusually hamfisted (very naughty word) seems totally unable to paint along any kind of borders. That has led me to so far defer painting of the canopies. Really annoying, but right now, I just don't dare to do it. It'll have to wait until we're back. Maybe some Danish beer will sort the issue.
Well, I'm at least rather pleased with how the camouflage has come out now that it's done.

I've also paint stripped an old Italeri F-4F that had at least two layers too much paint on it, neither very well applied. I think I built that when I was twelve or something, so there are some things to be desired both here and there, but I like to refurbish old models when I can. We'll see if this gets another German uniform or if it goes to something else. The Italeri Phantom in itself isn't that bad, in particular for a late longnose.

But that's for next week. Now - choosing and packing shirts, suits and shoes.

Quote from: Pellson on August 31, 2022, 10:07:54 AMWhile that doesn't sound too bad, this isn't the biggest of Jags, so five persons will fill it up indeed.

Must be an X-Type, or an FE.

Or could it be a Mk II? 

Quote from: PR19_Kit on August 31, 2022, 10:18:38 AM

Quote from: Pellson on August 31, 2022, 10:07:54 AMWhile that doesn't sound too bad, this isn't the biggest of Jags, so five persons will fill it up indeed.

Must be an X-Type, or an FE.

Or could it be a Mk II? 

An X-type it is. An Estate, but that doesn't give the rearseaters anything extra. It's a Sovereign though, so half a years worth of firewood in between the dead cows. Which is nice. I can't help thinking Jaguar lost something when they went away from the "plank" on the dash.

The X-Type is often referred to as 'a Mondeo in drag' amongst the more critical car types in the UK, but while some of its bits and pieces, including the platform itself, did come from Ford's Design Office at the time, Jaguar put a heck of a lot of development into it to make it more 'Jag-like'.

They ran it it on our 12 channel simulation rig for WEEKS before signing the ride off, and it felt most impressive when I rode in one.

Quote from: Pellson on August 31, 2022, 10:07:54 AMAnother week almost done. Tomorrow, we're leaving for a wedding in Denmark,

Does that mean you get to drive across the bridge linking Sweden and Denmark ? Or is it a ferry ?

There is a bridge these days, a BIG one!

And ferries too.