I think that sums it up well Weaver.
I did do a scenario with a more militarised Ireland. But that was based on a UK in the Warsaw Pact. I had the "wall" ie: the Anti Infiltration Barrier built across the Ulster/Eire border.
Eire becomes a member of NATO and has US and Canadian forces based there, and in response to this "aggressive posturing" by the NATO "imperialists" The Limited Contingent of Soviet Forces in Ulster is formed to give "fraternal support and assistance to their British comrades." (For anyone who is unable to understand this -this is irony and nil to do with politics  )

Quote from: Weaver on February 09, 2023, 07:10:23 AMHeads up:

AZ's "Foreign Users" edition of their 1/72nd Chipmunk kit includes Irish markings, along with Danish, Iraqi and Egyptian ones.
You could buy it to nick the Irish decals for a what-if and still have a perfectly buildable real-world Chippy.

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/AZM7557?result-token=MELFt


In similar vein, one Special Hobby boxing  of their 1/72nd SF-260 includes Irish, Belgian and Italian markings:

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/SH72418?result-token=gnsVp


Lastly, if you want some REALLY small IAC markings, Miniwings' 1/114th Magister comes in an Irish boxing:

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/MINI354?result-token=gnsVp

KP are selling the old Heller Alouette III in a couple of boxings, The "Over Europe" boxing includes Irish, French, Dutch and Austrian schemes.
https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/KPM72278?result-token=ZGU5l

The Irish Alouette markings are odd, because they include not only the usual roundels, but also three big flags placed right next to them, and on the underside:

Photo taken in 1999:

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9158402

Another, taken in 2007, during decomissioning

Nice pics Scooter - cheers! 

I notice that the Brengun PE set for the Heller Alouette includes skis, so now all I have to do to "cross the streams" is come up with a convincing backstory for the Irish Antarctic Survey that doesn't sound like the start of a joke. This may take some time...

If the IRA had won the Irish Civil War, how might alignment and procurement have changed?

Quote from: Mossie on April 08, 2023, 02:24:28 PMIf the IRA had won the Irish Civil War, how might alignment and procurement have changed?

Do you mean before or after all the internecine squabbles had turned Eire into a failed state?

Quote from: Mossie on April 08, 2023, 02:24:28 PMIf the IRA had won the Irish Civil War, how might alignment and procurement have changed?

That's terribly hard to call. Immediately after the Civil War, the IRA swung left, courting the Soviet Union, but this appears to have been a cynical quest for material support, rather than an ideological one. Then, in the late 1930s, they swung hard right, supporting Nazi Germany, then conservative in the 1950s then left again in the late 1960s, leading to the split between the Official IRA and the Provisional IRA. This makes it very hard to predict which way they might have gone if they'd won, indeed it's hard to say what 'winning' would have looked like. The IRA lost the Civil War because the majority of the Irish population supported the Free State and the Anglo-Irish Treaty, so it's hard to imagine a smooth transition to an IRA state. More likely the country would have descended into civil guerilla war for decades.

Given that an IRA-led Irish Republic would seek to take control of Ulster, they'd probably come into open conflict with the British government. That MIGHT lead them to seek Soviet support, in the same self-serving way that they did after losing in real life. Indeed, a good analogy might be the Spanish Republic, which was initially only centre-left and anti-communist, but which was driven into the arms of the Soviets due to the arms embargo which reduced support from other sources to an unreliable trickle. However it's also worth remembering that Ireland was POWERFULLY Catholic (not much less so today) and the Catholic Church did NOT like Communism, so again, it's hard to see how an IRA government could have kept up a pro-Soviet stance for long.

Note that when I say "THEY did this" or "THEY would do that", you shouldn't get the idea that the whole IRA, much less the wider Republican movement, moves in lockstep with the leadership. On the contrary, every single one of the their real-life ideological shifts has been marked by internal conflict, splits and splinter groups. This is the source of both their weakness and their longevity: whenever one set of leaders have laboriously maneuvered the IRA into a more peaceful and productive direction, the ever reliable split has taken place, leading to yet another "<something>IRA", determined to carry on the armed struggle.

Quote from: scooter on April 08, 2023, 11:48:15 AMPhoto taken in 1999:

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9158402

Just wonder why the guy on the tow truck's clasped his hand to his forehead ? He's got to have forgotten something ? 

Quote from: NARSES2 on April 09, 2023, 05:25:56 AM

Quote from: scooter on April 08, 2023, 11:48:15 AMPhoto taken in 1999:

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9158402

Just wonder why the guy on the tow truck's clasped his hand to his forehead ? He's got to have forgotten something ? 

Protecting his face from potential FOD/rotor wash?

Quote from: scooter on April 09, 2023, 05:32:04 AM

Quote from: NARSES2 on April 09, 2023, 05:25:56 AM

Quote from: scooter on April 08, 2023, 11:48:15 AMPhoto taken in 1999:

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9158402

Just wonder why the guy on the tow truck's clasped his hand to his forehead ? He's got to have forgotten something ? 

Protecting his face from potential FOD/rotor wash?

No, he's just heard H's joke about the Englishman, the Irishman, and the penguin and it's not good...

 

Quote from: Weaver on April 08, 2023, 08:57:08 PM

Quote from: Mossie on April 08, 2023, 02:24:28 PMIf the IRA had won the Irish Civil War, how might alignment and procurement have changed?

That's terribly hard to call. Immediately after the Civil War, the IRA swung left, courting the Soviet Union, but this appears to have been a cynical quest for material support, rather than an ideological one. Then, in the late 1930s, they swung hard right, supporting Nazi Germany, then conservative in the 1950s then left again in the late 1960s, leading to the split between the Official IRA and the Provisional IRA. This makes it very hard to predict which way they might have gone if they'd won, indeed it's hard to say what 'winning' would have looked like. The IRA lost the Civil War because the majority of the Irish population supported the Free State and the Anglo-Irish Treaty, so it's hard to imagine a smooth transition to an IRA state. More likely the country would have descended into civil guerilla war for decades.

Given that an IRA-led Irish Republic would seek to take control of Ulster, they'd probably come into open conflict with the British government. That MIGHT lead them to seek Soviet support, in the same self-serving way that they did after losing in real life. Indeed, a good analogy might be the Spanish Republic, which was initially only centre-left and anti-communist, but which was driven into the arms of the Soviets due to the arms embargo which reduced support from other sources to an unreliable trickle. However it's also worth remembering that Ireland was POWERFULLY Catholic (not much less so today) and the Catholic Church did NOT like Communism, so again, it's hard to see how an IRA government could have kept up a pro-Soviet stance for long.

Note that when I say "THEY did this" or "THEY would do that", you shouldn't get the idea that the whole IRA, much less the wider Republican movement, moves in lockstep with the leadership. On the contrary, every single one of the their real-life ideological shifts has been marked by internal conflict, splits and splinter groups. This is the source of both their weakness and their longevity: whenever one set of leaders have laboriously maneuvered the IRA into a more peaceful and productive direction, the ever reliable split has taken place, leading to yet another "<something>IRA", determined to carry on the armed struggle.

to

Quote from: Weaver on April 08, 2023, 08:57:08 PM

Quote from: Mossie on April 08, 2023, 02:24:28 PMIf the IRA had won the Irish Civil War, how might alignment and procurement have changed?

That's terribly hard to call. Immediately after the Civil War, the IRA swung left, courting the Soviet Union, but this appears to have been a cynical quest for material support, rather than an ideological one. Then, in the late 1930s, they swung hard right, supporting Nazi Germany, then conservative in the 1950s then left again in the late 1960s, leading to the split between the Official IRA and the Provisional IRA. This makes it very hard to predict which way they might have gone if they'd won, indeed it's hard to say what 'winning' would have looked like. The IRA lost the Civil War because the majority of the Irish population supported the Free State and the Anglo-Irish Treaty, so it's hard to imagine a smooth transition to an IRA state. More likely the country would have descended into civil guerilla war for decades.

Given that an IRA-led Irish Republic would seek to take control of Ulster, they'd probably come into open conflict with the British government. That MIGHT lead them to seek Soviet support, in the same self-serving way that they did after losing in real life. Indeed, a good analogy might be the Spanish Republic, which was initially only centre-left and anti-communist, but which was driven into the arms of the Soviets due to the arms embargo which reduced support from other sources to an unreliable trickle. However it's also worth remembering that Ireland was POWERFULLY Catholic (not much less so today) and the Catholic Church did NOT like Communism, so again, it's hard to see how an IRA government could have kept up a pro-Soviet stance for long.

Note that when I say "THEY did this" or "THEY would do that", you shouldn't get the idea that the whole IRA, much less the wider Republican movement, moves in lockstep with the leadership. On the contrary, every single one of the their real-life ideological shifts has been marked by internal conflict, splits and splinter groups. This is the source of both their weakness and their longevity: whenever one set of leaders have laboriously maneuvered the IRA into a more peaceful and productive direction, the ever reliable split has taken place, leading to yet another "<something>IRA", determined to carry on the armed struggle.

I must admit I fleshed out a few scenario's then left the question open as there's so many variables.  I came to similar conclusions, however one other possibility I thought of was the US as I believe there was some heavy political support for anti-treaty elements among ex-patriots.

Which treaty Mossie?
 
The 1922 one or the "Good Friday" one? 

The Irish government did have a plan to invade Ulster at the begining of the troubles of '69 to set up a safe area for catholics around 'derry (sorry Newry I misremembered), Op Armageddon.
It got war gamed and didn't end well, when RAF Phantoms cluster bombed the IDF and the army did "Achtung Panzer!" on 'em.
IIRC there is a utube video

If this crosses the no politics line let me know and I will delete

I think I remember Nick Moran, The Chieftain, did a video on it, although I could be wrong (I certainly can't find it, if he did) but I definitely remember a YouTube video covering it as a sort of "historical" event..

Quote from: Geoff on April 09, 2023, 06:24:02 AMWhich treaty Mossie?
 
The 1922 one or the "Good Friday" one? 

'22.