Rule 5 around Part Started models.

I have had a long think around this. Personally, if I do not have a kit on hand, I will more often than not, choose not to participate if a "new" kit is required for my idea, when I might have a pe-loved but seen better days many years ago, model of the same subject in a box somewhere and using that is not considered a legitimate starting point. I sometimes wonder if this point of view is more prevalent around GB participation ?

I would hazard to say that getting an old model back to a condition to take on a new life is quite often much more work than putting a fresh kit together.
GB and perhaps modelling in general is to my way of thinking and my opinion only,  more about the finished product, closely followed by the journey to get there. With where it started from running very near the back of the field.

In this day and age it is all about recycle, reuse

As with this discussion on part started models I would also like to include fully built models which haven't been painted ..no paint what so is a unfinished model .
Hacking up a built model for another project is a great money saver and a great why as Buzzy said to recycle.
I was looking on trademe yesterday at 1/35th scale models and guys the prices are crazy even for models which are now 30+yrs old.
I can enter the Re-engined GB but as the rules stand I'd have to use a brand new kit or a partly built one ..nope can't use a partly built kit ..have to destroy two brand new models for this GB which for me is kinda wasting 2 kits which I can't really afford to do and I still really don't have enough spare parts to build something like that ..if I re-engined a car I'd have to buy a brand new one..not at today's prices I won't be..far to expensive now and in my engineering mind putting a say V12 engine into a car with a V8 is not re engined..it's a engine swap as it's still a engine with a V configuration..now putting a radial engine in a car is re engined.
I don't even know if anyone makes a 24th scale radial engine anyway  but thats just a idea .
Re engineering a plane is easy..if it's got a radial make it a jet..
I seriously think including part built models is a very good idea..save money..gives ya more shelf space (big problem for me that is  ) and something which was considered trash or shelved forever gets a new life..always a good thing.

Right gentlemen I will get around to fully collating your points of view sometime in the next couple of weeks or so, probably around the May Day Bank Holiday given my diary for the next couple of weeks, but I do have one possible way forward buzzing around in my head.

On the subject of allowing part -started models into a GB, it would appear that there is quite strong support for this. Now I've expressed the issues I have with this above, mainly at what point in their lifecycle does a model become ineligible ? However suppose we allowed part-started builds BUT they were not eligible for the Vote at the end of the build ? To my mind it seems to be a fairly practical way forward and I don't see people see the GB's as a competition but more as stimulation anyway ?

Obviously we are relying on the integrity of the membership, but we do that anyway. It does mean a little bit more work when it comes to monitoring the GB, but that's something I could quite easily do as I normally trawl through all the posts every day anyway. That leaves the Moderators to concentrate on the essence of the GB.

These are just some initial thoughts which I wanted to jot down before they disappeared somewhere in the labyrinth that is my brain 

Chris

As a postscript. It would be very easy of course to have a pinned thread for completed builds from part-started kits

Partly started builds could be put into their own category with a vote at the end of the year.

Chris what I'm thinking about part started builds is a basis of parts for a new build .
Taking a partly built model with the intentions of ripping it to bits for something entirely different.
When comes to the vote thing it makes no never mind to me to be honest as I've never been into these things for votes or prizes .
Honestly I'm still  a bit shocked about winning a Wiffy award ..when you take into consideration that I've never won anything model based before this was a massive surprise but still the want to win more in my case isn't there .
The GBs are fun ..ok not my first with that bloody plane  but I'm lovin the other blokes builds ..so I'm happy either way ☺️
So when it comes to being ineligible for votes doesn't worry me but being able to use a part build does make life much easier 

I'm in the minority here it seems but I'm against part started builds.  When we have a rule that specifically states nothing more than parts prep is allowed before the start it seem contradictory to allow a model to be started and then entered as a "partly built/unfinished" kit.  Id be much more in favor of an annual season long "finish it" GB being added.

Quote from: AeroplaneDriver on April 16, 2023, 09:51:13 AMI'm in the minority here it seems but I'm against part started builds.  When we have a rule that specifically states nothing more than parts prep is allowed before the start it seem contradictory to allow a model to be started and then entered as a "partly built/unfinished" kit.  Id be much more in favor of an annual season long "finish it" GB being added.

I'm inclined to agree with that, there'd be an incentive to finish off those 'Hangar Queens' that keep leering at you from the Shelf of Doom then.

Yeah but what about all the models that are never going to get finished or the builder has every intention to rip it to bits and use its parts on another build ?
Having a finishing it GB has got nothing to do with part builds being used in a GB as part build..what I'm trying to get thru here is not to use a part build as a build to be continued but to be destroyed to build something new.
I've done this many many times  with armoured vehicles..cut up a non finished one to build something new .
Hell I've done it with completely finished builds because of an idea and this model or that one was needed for it chassis..or something like that 
In one score I got 4 Land Rovers..semi complete..i then pulled them completely to bits ..now their just a pile of parts ..do those count ?
It would be very helpful if they did .

The problem with a 12 month Finish It GB is that someone could simply start a build in January, pause it for a month in June, then either just post it on their blog thread and not get a prize, or enter it in the FIGB and get a prize, despite the fact that it was never really 'stalled'.

My primary reason for suggesting some means of giving stalled build a second chance was the perverse incentive to pass them over for something new that's generated by the current GB system, so here's an idea: the Finish It GB is ONLY open to builds that have previously been posted on the forum, with pictures, but which didn't get finished for some reason. The link to the old build thread and an 'as stalled' picture must be posted in the entrant's intial FIGB post and in their FIGB Finished Builds thread entry. That way the voters can see what the state of the build was before it was put in for the FIGB and how long it's been stalled, and make a judgement accordingly.

Chris - as others have already said, many thanks for your sterling efforts administering the GBs.  Also for seeking views on the way forward with GBs.

So here's my thoughts:

Annual One-Week GB - Keep it as it is.  Not sure the start date should be fixed (e.g., 1 June every year), rather leave it as always being in June each year.

General GB rules - I very much like the idea of a builds to votes 'formula' - standardises the approach to voting, makes life easier for the moderators, and the 'electorate' will know what to expect.  As for what to do in the event of a tie between two entries, then it's a tie for first place.  However, if it's more than a two-way tie then I think a run-off between the tied entries should be the way ahead.  Worked very well with the Logistics GB, and I'd suggest considering the five-day/one vote each approach to that poll as the basic run-off poll procedure.  Finally, three GBs per year is spot on.

Draft GB rules 1, 2 & 3 - Agree.

Draft GB rule 4 - Agree but suggest amendment to read '....is limited to planning/researching your entries, cleaning up...'.  Also 'Anything involving modification of parts, dry test fitting kit parts, pre-painting...'.

Draft Rule 5 - I agree, but can I suggest a tidy up as follows:  'Part-started models are not allowed - we are relying on the honour of our membership to uphold this rule - however scrapped models that have been reduced to component parts or sections may be allowed by the Moderators. If you feel that whilst technically you may have indeed started a model, but have made almost zero progress with it then you may take it up with the Moderators via PM, explaining what you have done (supported by pictures if possible) and they will decide on its eligibility, their decision being final.  Scrapped models that have been reduced to component parts or sections may be allowed by the Moderators.'

Draft Rule 7 - Assuming the proposed build/vote ratio is acceptable to all, this could read 'The completed entries thread will be locked at the end of the GB and shortly afterwards the poll will be set up.  The number of votes per forum member will be based upon a ratio of one vote per three entries (rounded up or down to the nearest whole number).

Rule 8 - I agree with zenrat's suggestion that Rule 8 needs to include the caveat that 'only those items posted on the finished builds thread before it is locked will be eligible for the poll'.

Rule 9 - The Whiffy category I think is reasonably well-established now, so suggest amendment to read '...will automatically be nominated for a Whiffy in the specific Group Build Class'.

On the GB admin front, could the annual GB proposal/discussion/poll be hosted in the Group Builds section of the forum?  Not a major issue but seems more intuitive to me.  Also (and regardless of where they live) should the annual GB proposal/discussion/poll be 'lifed', i.e., stay up on the forum only for a limited period of time (a year? two?) and then deleted?

Will post separately regarding Themed Builds.

Quote from: Weaver on April 16, 2023, 02:10:14 PMThe problem with a 12 month Finish It GB is that someone could simply start a build in January, pause it for a month in June, then either just post it on their blog thread and not get a prize, or enter it in the FIGB and get a prize, despite the fact that it was never really 'stalled'.

My primary reason for suggesting some means of giving stalled build a second chance was the perverse incentive to pass them over for something new that's generated by the current GB system, so here's an idea: the Finish It GB is ONLY open to builds that have previously been posted on the forum, with pictures, but which didn't get finished for some reason. The link to the old build thread and an 'as stalled' picture must be posted in the entrant's intial FIGB post and in their FIGB Finished Builds thread entry. That way the voters can see what the state of the build was before it was put in for the FIGB and how long it's been stalled, and make a judgement accordingly.

Nice idea, I like it.  Though perhaps entries shouldn't be from that year's GB 'season', otherwise basically it's like having a three-month extension.  Speaking of which, an FIGB wouldn't warrant the traditional two-week extension, that would just be extracting the Michael.

So, say this became a reality.  What I've just suggested would mean that the 2023-2024 FIGB could only include unfinished builds from the 2022-2023 season.  Transfer the build thread from the original GB to the FIGB?  Possibly - that would at least prevent the number of threads growing like Topsy. 

Quote from: NARSES2 on April 16, 2023, 01:34:05 AMOn the subject of allowing part -started models into a GB, it would appear that there is quite strong support for this. Now I've expressed the issues I have with this above, mainly at what point in their lifecycle does a model become ineligible ? However suppose we allowed part-started builds BUT they were not eligible for the Vote at the end of the build ? To my mind it seems to be a fairly practical way forward and I don't see people see the GB's as a competition but more as stimulation anyway ?

I'd say that option already exists as an unwritten rule - nothing currently prevents anyone from doing that today in parallel with GB entries undertaken i.a.w. the rules, as long as they're completely transparent abouf it.  Have been tempted to do that on a couple of occasions but never have.

I guess it wouldn't be too difficult to include a 'Finishing off a build that never got finished the last time we had this GB theme' thread.  Even the 1-week GB could accommodate this.  But it would just be for fun, outside the scope of the GB poll.

Just a thought.

Another way of looking at the part started builds could be a fellow modeller who is in hospital or recovering from a spell in hospital and would like his/her build to be finished by a member of the forum during the GB period. The modeller may have passed away and this could be his or hers legacy
I don't think there is a rule that doesn't say that more than one modeller can assist with the build.
As to recycling or using existing builds as prices of kits continues to rise the idea becomes questionable.
I don't want to be seen as a rebel or troublemaker but a compromise may be a better option and a trial period before a final decision is made 

Quote from: Wardukw-NZ on April 16, 2023, 02:40:28 AMChris what I'm thinking about part started builds is a basis of parts for a new build .
Taking a partly built model with the intentions of ripping it to bits for something entirely different.

As far as I'm aware and dependent upon the GB Moderators agreement there's nothing to stop you doing that now. It's the idea of finishing a part started kit that I still can't get my brain around. I'll sit down in a week or so's time with my clipboard and try and make sense of it all. 

Quote from: NARSES2 on April 17, 2023, 02:13:41 AM

Quote from: Wardukw-NZ on April 16, 2023, 02:40:28 AMChris what I'm thinking about part started builds is a basis of parts for a new build .
Taking a partly built model with the intentions of ripping it to bits for something entirely different.

As far as I'm aware and dependent upon the GB Moderators agreement there's nothing to stop you doing that now. It's the idea of finishing a part started kit that I still can't get my brain around. I'll sit down in a week or so's time with my clipboard and try and make sense of it all. 

Ahhhh now im getting the picture here of the problems your having with the part build ideas.
Yeah I'm with ya now..using the GB to finish a part build is entirely different from what I've been yapping about..im thinking a parts model ..not a parts build .
If that's the case then I'm all good and can shut up now