Quote from: NARSES2 on April 27, 2023, 01:38:56 AMNo sorry what I should have said was that you round point .5 to the nearest even all others are as you were taught.  So 2.5 rounds to 2 and 3.5 to 4. 

That still makes no sense to me Different school systems perhaps ...

Quote from: Wardukw-NZ on April 27, 2023, 01:51:38 AMalways easier to remove than add especially with 30mm plate ..which I was working with a couple of weeks ago.

I know someone who owns the last-known Caterpillar D6A armoured dozer that still has some of its original armour on it. He's restoring it to its full armoured cab, 22 mm steel all round (though he's using regular steel, not armour plate). He had the plates cut and welded up, and when installing it, found he had made a 2 cm mistake in a small cutout to go over the winch. He didn't seem to have the opinion that it was easy to remove that bit so the cab would fit

Quote from: rickshaw on April 27, 2023, 03:48:17 AMInterestingly, the Soviets used to round certain calibres one way or the other to differentiate between the weapons that used those rounds, so 105mm rockets became 107mm supposedly,  Apparently, Stalin ordered them to prevent foulups in the logistic system.

The USA and the UK did much the same at times. The British 77 mm gun (as used in the Comet cruiser tank) used the same projectiles as the 17-pounder, which was 3″ = 76 mm calibre, but deliberately designated 1 mm larger to prevent soldiers and logistics systems confusing the two. Same with the American 106 mm recoilless rifle M40, which fired 105 mm rounds but of a different type than the 105 mm RCL M27, so to avoid problems they again changed what the calibre was called rather than what it actually was.

This contrasts with things like the German 77 mm field guns from the First World War, which were actual 77 mm calibre. It was deliberately chosen because the French had 75 mm guns, so in case of a war they wouldn't be able to adapt German guns to use French ammo, but the Germans would be able to bore out captured French guns.

Quote from: kerick on April 27, 2023, 07:32:37 AMLooking forward to more of this! Have you considered paint yet?

I have — the model has been finished for some time, and it's painted in sand colour. Photos of M1A1s in the Gulf War almost invariably show them in sand, so that's what I went for with this one too. But I'm getting ahead of myself

Continuing with the hull, I built the lids for the boxes than the early prototypes had, and which the M70 inherited:

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These are simply per the drawings in Hunnicutt's book, cut from thin plastic card. On the hull, I had to add some extra plastic card fillets to complete the bins, but other than that these were simple enough to make:

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The strengtheners are half-round rod, the other fixtures are scraps of strip and stuff.

On the glacis plate, I also had to make new headlights, because the real MBT 70s had the same type of headlight as on the M60 tank, under a brush guard, while the KPz 70 had more Leopard-style lights with no brush guard. The German tank also had a gun travel lock that the American one lacked. After removing the plates that the German headlights were to sit on (not shown, I did that a lot earlier than making the actual lights), I settled on headlamps from the Tamiya Bradley — you get a set of spares in each of their Bradley kits, and two in the M2A2 kit because that has different lights altogether, but the original ones are still in it too. I made the brush guards from copper wire:

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The legs are far too long on purpose so I could bend them into shape before cutting them to size:

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And on the model, with the Bradley lights:

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The mudguards also got a piece added:

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I did that mainly because having mudguards end in a horizontal piece means a lot of crap will get thrown straight forward and make a mess all over the place, so a curved section seems likely. The KPz 70 mudguards appear to have anticipated this, as there is a hollow tube on them that looks designed to take a mudguard extension, so I simply modelled the curved section as if it attaches to that.

Quote from: Jakko on April 27, 2023, 10:48:44 AM

Quote from: rickshaw on April 27, 2023, 03:48:17 AMInterestingly, the Soviets used to round certain calibres one way or the other to differentiate between the weapons that used those rounds, so 105mm rockets became 107mm supposedly,  Apparently, Stalin ordered them to prevent foulups in the logistic system.

The USA and the UK did much the same at times. The British 77 mm gun (as used in the Comet cruiser tank) used the same projectiles as the 17-pounder, which was 3″ = 76 mm calibre, but deliberately designated 1 mm larger to prevent soldiers and logistics systems confusing the two. Same with the American 106 mm recoilless rifle M40, which fired 105 mm rounds but of a different type than the 105 mm RCL M27, so to avoid problems they again changed what the calibre was called rather than what it actually was.

This contrasts with things like the German 77 mm field guns from the First World War, which were actual 77 mm calibre. It was deliberately chosen because the French had 75 mm guns, so in case of a war they wouldn't be able to adapt German guns to use French ammo, but the Germans would be able to bore out captured French guns.

Actually, it is much easier to create new rounds of a near enough calibre than you appear to think.  During WWII, the Germans captured large numbers of Soviet weapons.  The 76.2mm field guns were supposedly a greater calibre than 75mm rounds but the Germans easily modified the rounds just by adding a larger driving ring initially and later reboring them to a smaller calibre gun tube and chamber in 75mm calibre.  When they adopted the Czech 47mm AT Gun, they just manufactured new ammunition for once the Czech supplies ran low.  The British remanufactured German 75mm HE rounds in 1942 when their own supplies of 75mm which was an American calibre rather than one of their own, ran low.  That involved removing in the fuzes and changing the driving rings and re-adding the fuzes to each round.  In the Western Desert, you could in theory have a German owned Soviet manufactured 7.62mm Field Gun rebored to 75mm, firing German ammunition.

Quote from: rickshaw on April 28, 2023, 12:10:30 AMActually, it is much easier to create new rounds of a near enough calibre than you appear to think.  During WWII, the Germans captured large numbers of Soviet weapons.  The 7.62mm field guns were supposedly a greater calibre than 75mm rounds but the Germans easily modified the rounds just by adding a larger driving ring initially and later reboring them to a smaller calibre gun tube and chamber in 75mm calibre.  When they adopted the Czech 47mm AT Gun, they just manufactured new ammunition for once the Czech supplies ran low.  The British remanufactured German 75mm HE rounds in 1942 when their own supplies of 75mm which was an American calibre rather than one of their own, ran low.  That involved removing in the fuzes and changing the driving rings and re-adding the fuzes to each round.  In the Western Desert, you could in theory have a German owned Soviet manufactured 7.62mm Field Gun rebored to 75mm, firing German ammunition.

I thought 7.62mm was a rifle round not an artillery round 

Gondor

Quote from: Gondor on April 28, 2023, 12:23:47 AM

Quote from: rickshaw on April 28, 2023, 12:10:30 AMActually, it is much easier to create new rounds of a near enough calibre than you appear to think.  During WWII, the Germans captured large numbers of Soviet weapons.  The 7.62mm field guns were supposedly a greater calibre than 75mm rounds but the Germans easily modified the rounds just by adding a larger driving ring initially and later reboring them to a smaller calibre gun tube and chamber in 75mm calibre.  When they adopted the Czech 47mm AT Gun, they just manufactured new ammunition for once the Czech supplies ran low.  The British remanufactured German 75mm HE rounds in 1942 when their own supplies of 75mm which was an American calibre rather than one of their own, ran low.  That involved removing in the fuzes and changing the driving rings and re-adding the fuzes to each round.  In the Western Desert, you could in theory have a German owned Soviet manufactured 7.62mm Field Gun rebored to 75mm, firing German ammunition.

I thought 7.62mm was a rifle round not an artillery round 

Gondor

Oops!  Decimal place in the wrong spot.  Now corrected!   

Quote from: rickshaw on April 28, 2023, 12:10:30 AM

Quote from: Jakko on April 27, 2023, 10:48:44 AM

Quote from: rickshaw on April 27, 2023, 03:48:17 AMInterestingly, the Soviets used to round certain calibres one way or the other to differentiate between the weapons that used those rounds, so 105mm rockets became 107mm supposedly,  Apparently, Stalin ordered them to prevent foulups in the logistic system.

The USA and the UK did much the same at times. The British 77 mm gun (as used in the Comet cruiser tank) used the same projectiles as the 17-pounder, which was 3″ = 76 mm calibre, but deliberately designated 1 mm larger to prevent soldiers and logistics systems confusing the two. Same with the American 106 mm recoilless rifle M40, which fired 105 mm rounds but of a different type than the 105 mm RCL M27, so to avoid problems they again changed what the calibre was called rather than what it actually was.

This contrasts with things like the German 77 mm field guns from the First World War, which were actual 77 mm calibre. It was deliberately chosen because the French had 75 mm guns, so in case of a war they wouldn't be able to adapt German guns to use French ammo, but the Germans would be able to bore out captured French guns.

Actually, it is much easier to create new rounds of a near enough calibre than you appear to think.  During WWII, the Germans captured large numbers of Soviet weapons.  The 76.2mm field guns were supposedly a greater calibre than 75mm rounds but the Germans easily modified the rounds just by adding a larger driving ring initially and later reboring them to a smaller calibre gun tube and chamber in 75mm calibre.  When they adopted the Czech 47mm AT Gun, they just manufactured new ammunition for once the Czech supplies ran low.  The British remanufactured German 75mm HE rounds in 1942 when their own supplies of 75mm which was an American calibre rather than one of their own, ran low.  That involved removing in the fuzes and changing the driving rings and re-adding the fuzes to each round.  In the Western Desert, you could in theory have a German owned Soviet manufactured 7.62mm Field Gun rebored to 75mm, firing German ammunition.

Rickshaw mate you don't have to theorize at all ..the Germans did exactly that in the Weatern Desert .
The Germans also mounted the F22 M1936 76.2mm gun on a 5ton halftrack called Diana ..I think it was built by Alket and used in the Western Desert.

Quote from: rickshaw on April 28, 2023, 12:10:30 AMActually, it is much easier to create new rounds of a near enough calibre than you appear to think.

It's not what I appear to think, I merely mentioned the reason the Germans adopted 77 mm field guns in the late 19th/early 20th century. Whether or not it would have worked as intended or not, I don't know, because I'm not aware of whether anyone ever actually tried it. The French probably never had any need to, anyway.

Quote from: rickshaw on April 28, 2023, 12:10:30 AMWhen they adopted the Czech 47mm AT Gun, they just manufactured new ammunition for once the Czech supplies ran low. The British remanufactured German 75mm HE rounds in 1942 when their own supplies of 75mm which was an American calibre rather than one of their own, ran low.

These are not examples of changing the calibre, though

Last bit of work on the M70A2's hull that I forgot to include yesterday:

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I made M1 Abrams-style side skirts from plastic card, with strip behind part of them to give extra thickness to the front ones that would have had "special armor" as the Americans call(ed) the Chobham-derived armour of the M1 Abrams:

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The front skirt plates are thicker than the rear ones because of this:

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Which I thought would be a good fit for the M70A2 as well. The supports are L-shapes cut from Games Workshop sprues and with the outer faces filed square. These will be out of sight, so no need to make them look good or believable. The skirts were left loose until after painting, so I could fit the wheels and tracks. Two bits of square plastic rod under the sponsons create location points so it was easy to position the skirts correctly later on.

Talking of tracks, I decided to replace the kit's soft-plastic tracks by separate-link ones, and because I prefer workable track over non-, I bought this Trumpeter set:

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These are T156 tracks for the early models of M1 Abrams. Not historically correct for the MBT 70, but I think they look cool and felt they could plausibly have been developed for the M70, so I went with them. Assembly is fairly easy:

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On the left the basic link part, next to that a link with side plates added, to replicate the hole that's between the pins, and then three links with end connectors. These are spaced correctly on the sprue to slide them straight onto multiple links, but I found it difficult to do with more than two.

Putting a length together gives you:

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There is no glue at all on these, so they remain completely workable, for easy installation after painting. With the side skirts, BTW, I don't bother building a complete track — the top run will be entirely hidden, so why waste effort and parts on that? I just built enough to go over the drive sprocket and idler so the ends disappear from sight when the skirts are on.

  

Just that one pic of the tracks proves to me just why I don't normally build tank kits! 

OK, I've got that 'Berlin Brigade' Chally 2 on the way, but that may be the only one.

Kit,  I build tank kits, and that set of photos gives me the shivers  ,  i normally just use the provided tacks in Tamiya kits, and ( thank Bob) most wargames kits have the tracks and roadwheels cast as a single entity   

Jakko   good on you for having the patience and drive to be able to do that     im not sure id have the patience.

Quote from: PR19_Kit on April 28, 2023, 03:14:38 AMJust that one pic of the tracks proves to me just why I don't normally build tank kits! 

Just buy ones with soft plastic tracks, you'll be fine

Quote from: Steel Penguin on April 28, 2023, 10:08:37 AMgood on you for having the patience and drive to be able to do that     im not sure id have the patience.

Most modellers, IMO, approach these kinds of tracks wrong. They build the whole model and then start on the tracks, perhaps putting it off as long as possible because of the work involved. You're much better off tackling the track in between doing other stuff: waiting for some glue to dry? Remove the parts from one or two track sprues and clean them up. Done some work on the turret? Put ten or so links together. Etc. That way you won't get bored out of your skull having to clean up and assemble two full tracks in one go.

What also helps is that I can make myself do dull tasks fairly well as long as there is a clear end in sight. OTOH, if I had to put this stuff together and someone would keep adding parts to the pile whenever it runs low ... I would probably end up bashing that person's face into a brick wall eventually

That said, I still don't really want to do tracks that are more work than they need to be. The ones I put on my M4A3 (90 mm), for example, are not a set I would buy again if I had a real choice, because they're just too much work for my taste. OTOH, the style of tracks where you slide end connectors onto links, like the ones I used here, I don't have too much problems with — unless they're a bother to clean up, of course. The fact that you endup with a workable track makes up for the effort in putting it together for me, because it means there are no problems installing it after painting — unlike hard plastic tracks that you have to glue together.

Kit you've brought the Berlin Brigade Challenger 2 ..would it be the Ryefield models version of it ?
I'm not going to say a thing about how many AM track sets I have ..I don't want to give anyone any health issues 

Quote from: Wardukw-NZ on April 28, 2023, 11:28:53 AMKit you've brought the Berlin Brigade Challenger 2 ..would it be the Ryefield models version of it ?

No, it's a Tamiya Chally 2 in the 'Desertised' version, and I'm building as if it had been around in the Berlin Brigade 'blocked camo' scheme, just for the hell of it.

It's a VERY slow build, as usual with many of mine, and the thread's still on here at https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=48561.15

The build starts at post #29.

Quote from: PR19_Kit on April 28, 2023, 11:59:22 AM

Quote from: Wardukw-NZ on April 28, 2023, 11:28:53 AMKit you've brought the Berlin Brigade Challenger 2 ..would it be the Ryefield models version of it ?

No, it's a Tamiya Chally 2 in the 'Desertised' version, and I'm building as if it had been around in the Berlin Brigade 'blocked camo' scheme, just for the hell of it.

It's a VERY slow build, as usual with many of mine, and the thread's still on here at https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=48561.15

The build starts at post #29.

Oh Womby did not lead you along the wrong path ..the Tamiya kit is a shake n bake kit..pretty near falls together and one piece tracks 
Even though I wouldn't hesitate to build Ryefields one ..it does look like a beauty.

All these mods are looking ace.  

Some pretty nifty solder work as well on the light guards.

Quote from: Wardukw-NZ on April 28, 2023, 11:28:53 AMI'm not going to say a thing about how many AM track sets I have ..I don't want to give anyone any health issues 

Good point, I will keep my mouth shut about my stash of those too, then ... Except to say: don't buy Bronco Sherman tracks.

Quote from: buzzbomb on April 28, 2023, 04:03:32 PMAll these mods are looking ace.  

Some pretty nifty solder work as well on the light guards.

Thanks. The soldering was not that great, if I'm honest — my skills in that area are somewhat lacking, but I managed to get the bits together. I mean, how hard can it really be to solder three wires? Well, you can see solder on the free ends of two wires, which was because the first attempt didn't come out too well, and I decided trying again with the clean ends would be better.