AWACS/ interceptor mix

[gunfighter]

Yesterday I remembered a topic we discussed some time ago about big aircraft being missile shooters, if I´m not wrong someone mentioned a cruise misile carrier 747. There was also something on bombers used as air defense interceptors, like backfires with 20 AA-9s or B-1Bs with lots of AIM-54s. Being these planes designed only as long range shooters, as they couldn´t dogfight with classic fighters, I thought why not installing an AWACS tipe radar on their back. Take as I`ve said, a backfire, B1, Vulcan, even B52, Blackjack, Bear, Badger... and put the dish on the back, it could be a more aerodinamic design, or even a hump. There you get outstanding detection capability and air control. The aircraft carries its fire control radar too to guide the missiles, but gets advantage of carrying a far more powerful one to have a wide image of the combat scenario. Locating itself on the best shooting position, launches barrages of long range missiles against the incoming bombers or fighters. Such an asset could effectivelly stop the backfire threat in the north atlantic in a WW3 class confrontation, flying patrols from northern britain.
On the oher side, Amos armed backfires could scort the attacking ones and get rid of defending tomcats while raiding on the US carrier groups.
The only disadvantage I see could be the cost, but one of these might do the work of a whole squadron of F3s with more range and bring AWACS capability into bear without the inherent vulnerability of unarmed E3s.

[lenny100]

If you look at sevral Dlae Brown books you will find the EB-1 vampire aircraft.
this is a B-1 fited with a skin mounted high power radar system and armed with up to 20 long range aams as well as the same amount of shorter ranged wepons. it is also opoerated by two sets of crew one in the aircraft and the other back art home base using secure data links for sensor operators, or flown or as a remote aircraft.

[Hobbes]

Ideally, you'd want not only the search capability of an AWACS-type radar, but also fire control. With the lack of maneuverability of such a large aircraft, being able to fire a missile at someone behind you would be an asset.

[lenny100]

you could fit ladar instead.

[Maverick]

There's been a few here that poo-pooed the idea of the AIM-54 in general, so I guess that a similar arguement would be used against a large AAM carrier.

I think the only real problem would be that Turkeys can carry a max load of 6 AIM-54 (albeit they can't land on the carrier if they're still carrying all) and engage with all weapons, but it's also a capable dogfighter & even has been known to toss iron when necessary, whilst our AAM armed B-1/B-52/etc can carry that which it has, but it can only launch at similar ranges which means it's well within range of the bad guys toting similarly ranged weapons or if they get within that firing envelope, you're gonna be dogmeat to short range aams or guns.

Still sounds like a wicked whiff tho.

Regards,

Mav

[dy031101]

Reminds me of something......

Those aren't AWACS per se, but many anti-narcotics command aircraft are small business airliners modified with a fighter radar.

Having them armed with some BVR air-to-air missiles would look wicked...... but probably not as flexible as dedicated fighterbombers that can force down targets rather than being only able to shoot them down?

Arming bizjet-based AEW/AWACS aircraft (I'm hoping for something more elegant than the Gulfstream CAEW&C) with Pheonix AAMs and backing up the combo with Nike-Pheonix SAM batteries would look wicked, too. 

[gunfighter]

Well, I guess that in an action-reaction turn, the enemy bombers would end up carrying anti-AWACS missiles to hunt my jet, but I was not talking about engaging enemy fighters like a tomcat (I mean in a classic deffensive role),but just a large aircraft that could perform ultra long range CAPs over the northern atlantic, and shoot down the groups of Backfires, Badgers and Bears in their way to attack US convoys. I think that it could succeed in this profile, given the fact that the russians didn´t have carrier borne fighters able to disturb it. Anyway it´s just an odd-looking bird, you can do the same work with a squadron of Tornadoes, some tankers and a couple of Sentries...

[gunfighter]

OK, I agree the phoenix can be short of range for my purpose, but there is no room or weight penalty in a B1 to carry other systems. The iranians did fit Hawks to fighters, why not Standards in a bomber? The RIM-161 is only a few inches longer than a CALCM and has a range of 270 miles...

[jcf]

Everything old is new again.

Lockheed CL-520, P-3 based fleet defense aircraft armed with up to ten Bendix Eagle missiles.
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app1/aam-n-10.html

Jon

[Archibald]

OK, I agree the phoenix can be short of range for my purpose, but there is no room or weight penalty in a B1 to carry other systems. The iranians did fit Hawks to fighters, why not Standards in a bomber? The RIM-161 is only a few inches longer than a CALCM and has a range of 270 miles...

Try the ASMP  Oh feck, what an idea, arm french AWACS and Hawkeyes with A2A ASMPs... 

[GTX]

As a variation, you could do like I did in my Whaling War story and send a large missile carrier to accompany your AWACS:

"...the OCDF had sent two C-130J-30 Hercules transports to accompany each of the two Wedgetails operating in support.  However, these were no ordinary Hercules.  Each had been specially modified to deploy Meteor ELRAAMs from its rear...As soon as each missile was deployed, it quickly fired a booster motor (specially fitted to build up the speed before the ramjet took over) and was guided using inputs from the Wedgetails' radar.  The effect would be devastating, with in excess of 80 missiles in the air at one time - virtually all the Indonesian fighters were shot down before they even had a chance to realise what was going on.  Upon their return, the crews of the Hercules quickly re-designated their aircraft as FC-103Js and painted kill markings on the sides..."

or alternatively, what about merging a Wedgetail AEW&C with a P-8 Poseidon and load it up with somehing like Meteors in both the weapons bay and under the wing/fuselage.

Regards,

Greg

[PanzerWulff]

I was thinking of arming a E2C Hawkeye with a couple of phoenix missles 2 underwing outboard of the engines and 2 on conformal launchers on the fuselage. They would be used as a standoff defense for the E2C and the carrier in the event of needing to take out a airborne threat where the fighters could not be called out in time
"Panzer"

[B777LR]

OK, I agree the phoenix can be short of range for my purpose, but there is no room or weight penalty in a B1 to carry other systems. The iranians did fit Hawks to fighters, why not Standards in a bomber? The RIM-161 is only a few inches longer than a CALCM and has a range of 270 miles...

Try the ASMP  Oh feck, what an idea, arm french AWACS and Hawkeyes with A2A ASMPs... 

Hell, it would outdo my Aeronavale F-18 armed with 2 ASMPs
And i thought they were just ordinary anti-shipping missiles...

[Joe C-P]

I was thinking of arming a E2C Hawkeye with a couple of phoenix missles 2 underwing outboard of the engines and 2 on conformal launchers on the fuselage. They would be used as a standoff defense for the E2C and the carrier in the event of needing to take out a airborne threat where the fighters could not be called out in time
"Panzer"

Even a couple Sparrows or AMRAAMs should be enough to deter attack. You don't need to actually hit the enemy, just make him turn away long enough for your escort to down them or chase them.

JoeP

[Maverick]

I guess it all boils down to the opposition.  If you're toting X missile, has the other guy got a similarly ranged weapon? 

I like the idea of the bigger birds carrying Standard variants as you'd have to have the bad guys with a similar Mega-Fighter of sorts to get at you.

The idea is interesting but it assumes that the extrememly long ranged shots you were taking guided and killed the shorter ranged defenders (if they were AA armed at all).

As opposition, I could see a Backfire strike supported by Flankers (or even AAM configured Backfires) & Midas tankers with Mainstays AEW birds controlling the show.

It would actually be interesting to find out the longest ranged AAM kill.  What sort of ratio there was re: missles fired & missles hit, etc, etc?

I'm not talking wargames here but the real deal and from a believable source as I can guarantee that the IRIAF would be telling someone they killed Iraqi birds with their Phoenixes purely for the propaganda. 

Definitely gets the grey matter churning.

Regards,

Mav