Nimrod alternatives?

[upnorth]

Just got struck by a thought; what if Britain had decided upon a different aircraft than the Comet for the Nimrod's role? I was particularly wondering about a turboprop design, such as a Viscount or Vanguard. After all, the U.S. had a successful plane in the Orion, and Canada went the same route with the Aurora. Or maybe a Trident or VC-10?

Gittin' that twitch again... 

Actually, the aircraft you're looking for is the Bristol Britania. The aircraft that was used to develop the Canadair CP-107 Argus, the forunner to the Aurora.

Now the Argus had radials in both its MK.1 and MK.2 forms, but the Britania did get turboprops in some of its transport incarnations.

So......

Marry one CC-106 Yukon (a Britania by any other name):


To one CP-107 Argus:


The resulting aircraft keeps the Argus's fuselage and ASW goodies, but inherits the Yukon's Tyne II turboprops.

From what I've found the Tyne II had about a 2000 hp advantage over the radials that the Argus had.

I think that would be the most likely result if a turboprop based ASW aircraft was being considered over the jet based option.

[The Rat]

Yeah, I love the Argus, always put on a great show at the CNE.

Now the Argus had radials in both its MK.1 and MK.2 forms, but the Britania did get turboprops in some of its transport incarnations.

Actually the Britannia was strictly a turboprop, the Argus was, I believe, the only piston derivative.

Trouble with modeling one is the availability of a base product. I've already got a Trident so that was my first thought, but there are Viscounts out there too. Vanguards I don't know about, there may be a vac but I don't know of any injection molded ones, and even if there were I would be too tempted to do it in Down East International markings anyway!

[upnorth]

I do believe Welsh Models' 1/144 vac formed CL-44 is still out there to be had if you wanted the Yukon basis.

http://www.welshmodels.co.uk/SL174P.html

[kitnut617]

Yeah, I love the Argus, always put on a great show at the CNE.

Now the Argus had radials in both its MK.1 and MK.2 forms, but the Britania did get turboprops in some of its transport incarnations.

Actually the Britannia was strictly a turboprop, the Argus was, I believe, the only piston derivative.

Trouble with modeling one is the availability of a base product. I've already got a Trident so that was my first thought, but there are Viscounts out there too. Vanguards I don't know about, there may be a vac but I don't know of any injection molded ones, and even if there were I would be too tempted to do it in Down East International markings anyway!

Hey Rat, see my post just before the VC-10 picture.  I've got three 1/72 Vanguards in vacuform (which are still available), I've got one 1/72 Argus vacuform (one of only ten kits made worldwide) and I've got a 1/72 Britannia in vacuform.  I've been trying to figure out how I can make a couple of other Britannias with destroying the one I've got (took me years to find it), I also want to make another Argus as the version I have has the smaller radome and I want to do both versions.

[The Rat]

I've got three 1/72 Vanguards in vacuform (which are still available),

COOL! And I seem to recall that somebody once put out a set of DEI markings.

[mrdj]

What make are the Vanguard and Argus?

[Mossie]

Vickers & Canadair....  Sorry, couldn't resist!

Welsh Models do both, they do a Britannia too, as well as a whole host of post war airliners in vacform & mixed media.
http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/index.php?CATEGORY=&DIVISION=&MANUFACTURER=&TYPE=&order%5B%5D=arrived+desc&order%5B%5D=code+asc&CODE=&SCALE=&KEYWORD=Cl-44&NUMPERPAGE=25

http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/index.php?CATEGORY=&DIVISION=&MANUFACTURER=Welsh+Models&TYPE=&order%5B%5D=arrived+desc&order%5B%5D=code+asc&CODE=&SCALE=&KEYWORD=Vanguard&NUMPERPAGE=25

How about converting a Short Belfast to the MRA role?  If the Belfast had been allowed to develop, it's size & payload capacity might have leant it to some specialist roles.

[Lawman]

I seem to remember that there were real issues with the Belfast regarding range vs fuel burn (they received a fix when they were bought by Heavylift that boosted speed and efficiency quite a bit). The best bet in general lies with the converted airliners, i.e. Vanguard/Trident/VC-10, since they have good efficiency and range already, whereas a transport generally doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I love the Belfast, and think it would have been great if they could have been bought in larger numbers, and kept, since they would have been pretty useful!

The VC-10 has the benefit of having long range and high speed, as with the Nimrod, but an even longer fuselage. If it can be fitted with the fuselage bomb bay, preferably even longer than the Nimrod's one, then it has real potential as both maritime patrol plane and as a bomber. As some of the design studies of the early '60s had indicated, the VC-10 had potential as a missile carrier - e.g. anti-shipping missions against the Russian White Sea Fleet, or even carrying Skybolt if it entered service! If Skybolt had entered service, the UK would have had a multitude of potential carriers, i.e. Vulcans, Victors and VC-10s! This would have given the RAF a reasonably credible deterrent force, ideally alongside Polaris. The RAF maintained maritime patrol and bomber bases in lots of locations, around Britain, but also Malta/Cyprus (depending on timeframe), and potentially Diego Garcia/Gan and Singapore/Australia.

The main benefit, of course, is that the VC-10 would also be in service for other roles, notably as tankers and transports; this does help with commonality, even if the maritime patrol version has structural differences. The same could be said for some of the other choices, but the VC-10 probably boasts the best performance and capability (range and payload especially).

[Thorvic]

Welshmodels have the Argus/Yukon lined up in 1/144 scale as well :-

The latest kits to be released soon are.

1. MT 23 P - Canadair Argus CP107 'ARGUS' Maritime Reconnaissance Mk.1 ~ Royal Canadian Air Force.

2. MT 24 P - Canadair Argus Mk 2 ~ Royal Canadian Air Force.

3. MT 25 P - Canadair Yukon ~ Royal Canadian Air Force


G

[Mossie]

I seem to remember that there were real issues with the Belfast regarding range vs fuel burn (they received a fix when they were bought by Heavylift that boosted speed and efficiency quite a bit). The best bet in general lies with the converted airliners, i.e. Vanguard/Trident/VC-10, since they have good efficiency and range already, whereas a transport generally doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I love the Belfast, and think it would have been great if they could have been bought in larger numbers, and kept, since they would have been pretty useful!

I can only see the Belfast being developed if the RAF had bought more, or some airframes where exported.  I'm pretty certain the fuel burn issues would have been picked up in any development, especially if a small operator with only five airfarmes could justify the expense to do so.  The Belfast was one of the early airframes that took Tynes, so teething problems were an issue, but would probably have been ironed out in the long term if it wasn't for it's ridiculously short RAF lifespan.   The Tyne engine is still in use on Transalls (I think RR still produce a marine version) so I really don't think it would have been too much of a problem.

[kitnut617]

What make are the Vanguard and Argus?

The 1/72 Vanguards are made by Gene Hooker in the States and his manufacturing company is just called Gene Hooker.  You can get them direct from him (PM me for details) or through Old Model Kits.

The 1/72 Argus though is very rare, only ten were vacuformed and the company (if you could call it that) is called after the maker' name, Santos, who is a South African.  The story as I understand it was Santos made some very accurate female moulds of the Argus for himself and was persuaded to pop a few more. Last year two or three of these were made available at Aviation World Toronto which is where I got mine from.  The last I heard is they are all sold 

Both of these model are just the basic shapes, u/c, props and other details you want like panel lines etc. have to be done by yourself.  The Vanguard does come with acetate windshield and decals for a Trans Canada Air Ways Vanguard (pre Air Canada) plus a very comprehensive assembly instruction booklet and some colour photos.  So far I have got some Aeroclub Britannia props for mine, they are very close in spinner shape and as the Vanguard prop was smaller in diameter, they can be shortened to the required length (in the instruction booklet there's a 1/72 scaled drawing profile of the props should you want to re-produce them yourself)