JP233 Cluster Munitions Dispenser

[Archibald]

Well the JP-233 was used by the Tornado only, ok.

But an idea has popped in my head yesterday evening... what about a Vulcan fitted with two JP-233 on the weapon bay, or two on the Skybolt pylons (were the Shrike ARM were fitted in Falkalnd war) ?

Let's say that, with a crash program, this weapon was fitted to black buck Vulcans so that they destroyed Port Stanley runway ?

JP-233 Phantoms and Buccaneers would be cool (albeit I suppose that there's probably no way of fitting this weapon on their bellies).

Would JP-233 fit into Vulcan and / or TSR-2 weapon bay ?  

[Hobbes]

The JP-233 consisted of two parts, iirc they could be installed as one unit (as on the Tornado) or two. I haven't been able to confirm that, though. The unit is huge, at 6.5 m long and a weight of at least 1.5 tons (the submunitions alone weigh 1300 kg, can't find the weight for the complete unit).
The USAF originally wanted to use the JP233 on the F-111.


click for photo






***fixed image link*** jjf

[Riksbar]

Archie,

Is it possible to drop JP-233 from 10 000 ft ?

The two munitions used, SG357 for runway cratering and HB876 for area denial were designed to be dispersed at low level and would probably end up all over Port Stanley if released from 10,000 ft, especially as the SG357 used a retarding parachute.   However with something the size of the Vulcan I would put wings, a simple Inertial Navigation system and possibly an engine on the dispenser to turn it into a stand off weapon.  I reckon a Vulcan could carry 6 to 10, and with a pre-programmed co-ordinated attack pattern they would make quite a mess of most airfields and those trying to repair them.  

I have been thinking about JP233 on the TSR2 and would either go with wing mounts or more likely two pods mounted in tandem, back to back, under the belly.

As Hobbes said the JP233 was designed to have the units able to be used separately as well (although it never was) and Hunting also developed a version of the BL755 cluster bomb with HB876 bobmlets called HADES (Hunting Area DEnial System)

[Thorvic]

I have been thinking about JP233 on the TSR2 and would either go with wing mounts or more likely two pods mounted in tandem, back to back, under the belly.

Almost but not quite !. The JP233 is really just the dispenser its the sub munitions that are the weapon system

Remember the the JP233 dispenser was designed to fit to the belly of the Tornado, The actual weapon system was tested on the Buccaneer with the smaller dispenser mounted on the wing pylons and the main dispenser fitted in the bomb bay.

Should the TSR2 have gone into service then a dispenser would have been designed to fit in the TSR2 bombbay, all be it probabably carrying less sub munitions. This would leave the wing pylons free for tanks, ordanance or defensive aids  without the drag of two great lumps on the belly.

G

[Archibald]

The two munitions used, SG357 for runway cratering and HB876 for area denial were designed to be dispersed at low level and would probably end up all over Port Stanley if released from 10,000 ft

Well, this would complicate a lot life of Argentinian soldiers there no ? no way of walking out of the base, or even on the runway, because there would be mines and cluster bombs scattered everywhere... a kind of psychological weapon, to harass the ennemy... imagine that Vulcan came every week or every three days and spread loads of submunitions all across their Argentinian compounds  and barracks...

Can a Vulcan fly at three tops like a Bucc ? or at least at 300 ft above the ground ?  

[Hobbes]

With about 250 submunitions from a single pod, you'd need to concentrate them in a small area to be any use. Try spreading 250 mines out over 1 square km, and you'll see there's so much space between them they're little more than a nuisance. You'll need a LOT of submunitions to do 'area denial' on such a large area. The area denial bombs only worked because the submunitions were hidden in the rubble caused by the runway cratering bombs, and made repairing the runway difficult.


I like the idea of a standoff version of JP233. Maybe a Martel or ASMP (or more recently, Storm Shadow) fitted with a dispenser would work. Adapting an existing missile would save development money.

[Riksbar]

Archibald @ Aug 28 2007, 07:35 PM

Well, this would complicate a lot life of Argentinian soldiers there no

I think the risks to the civilian population would be too high.   The area denial mine in particular was a very nasty piece of kit.  Designed to go off at random for several days after an attack it would spring into the air before fragmenting and had a relatively large lethal radius, especially for soft targets (most wooden houses in Port Stanley would probably come under that heading).  It also incorporated a self forging warhead which would blow through the blade, engine block and cab of a bulldozer if you used one of those to clear them.

Thorvic @ Aug 28 2007, 11:54 AM

Should the TSR2 have gone into service then a dispenser would have been designed to fit in the TSR2 bombbay, all be it probabably carrying less sub munitions. This would leave the wing pylons free for tanks, ordanance or defensive aids without the drag of two great lumps on the belly.

I was thinking of something like the semi conformal fuel tank with either fuel or extra get-you-home defensive goodies in the bombbay.

[XV107]

The original cunning plan for the Vulcan attacks was to come in at low level. It was decided to move to medium altitude for a variety of reasons, one of which was that the RAF decided that issuing the crew with a natty little rising sun headscarf wasn't a particularly British way of doing things...

JP233 on the Vulcan, given the delivery profile would have been verging on the suicidal - and that's not just my opinion, but shared with an ex-Vulcan co-pilot, and an ex-Vulcan AEO. The things one discusses over the fifth pint of Spifire ale...   If the original plan for JP233 to be a stand-off system had been followed, then it's a different matter - but you then have to be slightly concerned about things going astray and inadvertantly mining Stanley high street.

Don't forget that completely trashing the runway at Stanley wasn't the plan, since we wanted to be able to use it afterwards. What you'd need, I suggest, would be a Vulcan with a Pave Knife pod under one Skybolt pylon and perhaps an some form of MER in slant four configuration with four UK Paveway under the other wing (and a few more in the bomb bay). That could have allowed for some fairly interesting sorties against the runway: put five or six holes in it along the length, and the Argentines can't fly resupply missions in and out even with C-130s.

[PanzerWulff]

Anyone know what the munitions dispenser used by german Tornados is the one made by MBB???
Sorry to go off topic :dum:
"Panzer"

[Excalibur]

The JP makes such a mess that the RAF hated testing it on their own target areas. With this in mind I don't think they would want to use one against an airfield that they wished to take back, not to mention one so close to their own civilians. Just thought I'd add something a little different.

In terms of the Vulcan using it (if it was fitted for one etc) I think it might be a little slow & big to be used against an actual military airfield.  

[Hobbes]

this Youtube video has several shots of both the JP233 and MW1 in action, about halfway through the video (3:40)