Allies' "Allergy" to Red Markings

[NARSES2]

I believe Vichy French aircraft operated for a time over Indo-China.

They did indeed Geoff, both in the war against Thailand and after. I have a profile of an MS 406 serving in Tonkin in 1942 in recognition markings imposed by the Japanese after French aircraft were shot down by Japanese aircraft who thought they were American. Red/yellow "candy stripe" nose with red tail and rear fusalage. Still has French national rudder stripes.

There's a really neat article appearing in the next SIG newsletter about this theatre of war. Which in the real world was a rather tragic one for the French involved.

Geoff there's a PM on it's way mate

Chris

[sequoiaranger]

Learn something every day!

I knew of the mini-war of French Indochina vs Thailand in 1940. I would also suppose that "1942" for the MS 406 would be early 1942 prior to the elimination of European influence in Indonesia.

Though I would have had to say it would be "logical" for whatever remaining French aircraft in Indochina to be thoroughly taken over by the Japanese, I would admit to being ignorant of the details of the takeover, and what authority was "granted" by the Japanese. I would presume that the remaining French authority would be "allowed" to handle internal affairs of the country under watchful Japanese overseers. I do find it surprising that the French would be allowed an air force, especially since they actively fought the Japanese "ally" Thailand. Perhaps the takeover of French Indochina proceeded in stages, the first stage being for the French to "allow" Japan to base aircraft on French territory (not that the French had many other options) late in 1941, and then caving in to increasing Japanese demands.

Not too surprising that the Indochinese "Vichy" aircraft sported similar red/yellow stripes as their European cousins.
Anybody know what happened to these aircraft later on?

[Geoff]

Though I would have had to say it would be "logical" for whatever remaining French aircraft in Indochina to be thoroughly taken over by the Japanese, I would admit to being ignorant of the details of the takeover, and what authority was "granted" by the Japanese. I would presume that the remaining French authority would be "allowed" to handle internal affairs of the country under watchful Japanese overseers. I do find it surprising that the French would be allowed an air force, especially since they actively fought the Japanese "ally" Thailand. Perhaps the takeover of French Indochina proceeded in stages, the first stage being for the French to "allow" Japan to base aircraft on French territory (not that the French had many other options) late in 1941, and then caving in to increasing Japanese demands.

March 9th 1945 was known as "The Night of the Samuri" A lot of French troops were massacred by the Japanese. I think the Japanese were a little miffed at the French having a war with their Thai allies.

Post war there were so few French aircraft in Indo-Chinsa the French operated Ki-43 Oscars until early 1946 when the RAF let them have some Spitfires. That was after we (UK) handed the country back to the French after policing it with Japanese troops under British officers. Is there any doubt as to why it all went so tits up at that point?

[sequoiaranger]

>March 9th 1945 was known as "The Night of the Samuri" A lot of French troops were massacred by the Japanese. I think the Japanese were a little miffed at the French having a war with their Thai allies.<

Did you mean 1942?

1945 seems a little late for the Japanese to get their revenge on the French, but then again, revenge is sweet even if delayed.

[Geoff]

Nope 1945

"The Damned Die Hard", McLeave H, NEL, 1973. page 189.
All it says is relations had been cool and Japanese broke the treaty they made with Vichy by increasing their troop levels in Indo-China.

It would be a good point to change a time-line though if you wanted to write an alt. history.

[philp]

As far as friendly fire causing the elimination of the dot on US aircraft, not sure but there were plenty of friendly fire incidents starting during the Pearl Harbor attack when Wildcats from the Enterprise were fired on and even shot down.  Course, everyone was a little jumpy that afternoon.

Good history on US Markings but no details as to why the change.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq2-1.htm

This one is also pretty good and just says to avoid confusion with the Japanese markings.
http://www.jcs-group.com/military/rank/usafaircraft.html

[Geoff]

TO-07-1-1 on 1st June 1942 ordered the removal of the red from all US aircraft, there had been orders to remove the tail stripes in May. But AAC units had been removing the red dots since sometime in the spring of 42.  I have read that confusion during the Pearl Harbour attack and at Clarke Field in the Phillipines was the reason for this.

[Radish]

Never seen ANY colour photos of RNZAF aircraft with red centres during the war...all the ones I've seen had blue centres....an RAF "C" type, but in blue and white, possibly with an outline of yellow. Also, sometimes, the RNZAF added white bars to the roundels as the US did, so a roundel of any dark colour immediatly became an enemy. RAAF and RAF aircraft had the blue/white combination, although then the RAF went to 2-tone blue, frequently of reduced size.
It has to be remembered too that unlike the conjested skies of Europe, there was often months between the sightings of enemy aircraft, even when over enemy territory.

[NARSES2]

I knew of the mini-war of French Indochina vs Thailand in 1940. I would also suppose that "1942" for the MS 406 would be early 1942 prior to the elimination of European influence in Indonesia.

The profile is dated as March 1942.

Indo China was still officially a French administered territory until early 1945, as Geoff intimates. It then got very nasty, involving the Japanese, "Legitimate" French (Gaulists) and the rump of the Vichy state. As I said a tragic time. There is a little about this in Max Hasting's Nemesis and a little here [urlhttp://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/seasia/wwiifrindoch.html][/url]

[NARSES2]

I knew of the mini-war of French Indochina vs Thailand in 1940. I would also suppose that "1942" for the MS 406 would be early 1942 prior to the elimination of European influence in Indonesia.

The profile is dated as March 1942.

Indo China was still officially a French administered territory until early 1945, as Geoff intimates. It then got very nasty, involving the Japanese, "Legitimate" French (Gaulists) and the rump of the Vichy state. As I said a tragic time. There is a little about this in Max Hasting's Nemesis and a little here

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/seasia/wwiifrindoch.html

[Ian the Kiwi Herder]

Just to add to all the discussion, here's Tom Cleavers' build of Bob Fiskins' 'Wairapa Wildcat'. As you can see, it has the 2" red dot in the centre of the fuselage roundel but has the all pale blue 'C' type wing roundels.

http://www.modelingmadness.com/reviews/allies/us/cleaverp40m.htm

I've also seen 'artwork' of this well documented machine showing the fuselage roundel with a red centre (in-fact, this machine is on my 'to-do' list for when the Trumpy 1:32 P-40M is eventually released). I also found a number of photos from Bob Fiskins' own collection. I know interprating B&W pics is fraut with danger, but that centre roundel LOOKS like it's red).

I've seen a number of other 'artworks' and profiles of RNZAF/Navy SBD's & F4U's with very similar markings. I recall a really good article in a Ventura Publications book some years back that covered markings (and their anomalies) of the New Zealand AF/Navy in the mid-to-late stages of the Pacific war.

HTH

Ian

[Aircav]

Aircraft recognition never was a strong point with the US, oh look a bit of red I'll shoot it down never mind looking to see what the plane is first.

[Ian the Kiwi Herder]

**Possible Thread Hi-Jack Alert**
Not meaning to hi-jack the thread, but in late 1944, the USAAF asked the RAF to remove the 'Sky' bands from all British fighters in the European theatre because it could be confused with German 'Defence of the Reich' bands......... I'm guessing there were a lot of new pilots (and air-gunners) coming to the squadrons at that time.

**Thread Hi-jack Completed**

Ian

[NARSES2]

A little bit more on Indo-China - all gleaned from "Nemesis" by Max Hastings.

After Japan put 35,000 troops into Indo-China in 1941 in order to secure the rice supplies the Vichy administration and armed forces were allowed to operate under Japanese control. In 1945 the Japanese launched a preemptive strike on these forces before they could mount any anti Japanese action (they were under pressure from the new French Government to do so). 1,000 French troops were killed and 8,500 taken prisoner. This is where we get the unfortunate examples of French troops guarding French captives.

A large number of French troops tried to cut there way to freedom in China but were assailed on all sides by both the Viet Mienh (with US aid) and the Japanese. Some 5,000 raged survivors eventually made it to China, where the US ambassador got rid of them as quickly as possible.

This incident caused serious problems in relations between the US and UK Governments, already under threat because of the planed British return to Malaya. Churchill had wanted to aid the French, the US (with it's anti imperialist stance) refused to lift a finger. Obviously it caused even more problems with the new French administration and these were increased by the US refusal to allow De Gaulle to send the Division Legre out to the Far East. All very sad and quite tragic.

How far these events went to straining US-French relationships post war I've no idea, but De Gaulle had a long memory.

Chris

[nev]

lol, you make it sound like DeGaulle needed an excuse to be an awkward, arrogant, obstructing. loathed, untrusted, ignored, gallic snob!

As Roy Jenkins put it "Tiresome pirouettting from a slender power base".  Satre "I would rather vote for God".  Was it Brooke who said "Of all the crosses I had to bear during the war, the heaviest was the Cross Of Lorraine"?

[/Thread Hijack]