Cold War Tech War

[Nick]

Found this wonderful work in Ian Allan yesterday and bought it based on the cover artwork! Randall Whitcomb (also the artist) describes the way Avro Canada and the Canadian defense industry and military were basically betrayed by the leaders of the day and US interference. If half of what he says is true, then someone should be kneecapped.

What-ifs include C-102 JetLiner in USAF service, TWA and North-Eastern colours, the Arrow variants and various SST projects.

Front cover

Back cover


http://www.apogeespacebooks.com/Books/ColdWar.html

[upnorth]

Yeah there's a lot of nformation and misinformation out there on the Arrow and Jetliner.

If you cut through the conspiracy theorist nonsense about the Arrow, I believe there is record of it somewhere that America had the Arrow on order to the tune of 200+ airframes shortly before or shortly after the first prortype flew. If that's true, then it works against the notion that America had a hand in killing the Arrow as it would have been in their intrests to keep it alive.

As for the Jetliner, Howard Hughes was said to be quite impressed with the design and borrowed one of the aircraft to fly around for a while.

My suspicion is that more answers of a meaningful sort will be found by looking inside Canada and the internal politics at play rather than outside at what "influence" her friends may have been trying to foist upon her.

The Canadian aviation industry was strong and well reputed. Avro didn't need America as a customer to survive, they could have found customers anywhere, Belgium and the CF-100 is an example of that.

The industry couldn't have collapsed so completely if the Canadian government had been supportive of it in the first place. Whatever, if any, external "influences" might have been at play; ultimately it was the Canadian government's lack of support that was the critical factor.

Like I said, look inward rather than outward.

[Nick]

Upnorth, what you say is pretty much what Whitcomb says. The book has a picture of Hughes with the JetLiner and documents the plans HE developed for it including buying 30 for his airline, TWA, in a swept-wing design.

C.D. Howe appears to be the main baddie so far. You wonder if he had shares in Canadair the way he supported them over Avro. Mackenzie King doesn't look so good either.

BTW, I'm not scanning these (copyright rules) but the inner art of a long-range RAF Arrow and the TWA Jetliner are really nice!

[Gary]

Crawford Gordon in my opinion was a bigger detriment to the Arrow and Avro than even Diefenbaker. If you look at the number of extensions to the contract and the journals that outline the concern the government played to keep the jobs in Canada and the assorted support jobs in the US then you kind have have to reevaluate the outcome.
The bigger problem for the Arrow was the RCAF wanted less of a single purpose interceptor and wanted a better all round performer. The Phantom was looking good on paper and the RCAF wanted something that could do it like the Phantom. Boeing had been hard selling the Bomarc to everyone who could sign a cheque. Missiles were in and manned interceptors, in fact, interceptors as a type, were out. And all the while, like in any major program, the Air Force was asking for changes. Gordon was telling them no.
The classic and best known story on this is the canopy. The RCAF wanted a bubble like the Phantom would eventually have. They didn't want the enclosed and visually limiting canopy the Arrow had. Gordon told the Air Force that there was no way he'd "allow" a bubble canopy on the Arrow. This was prior to the US helping Avro with the problems with excessive reflection out the front glass. (the metal divider between the glass stopped the reflection, see an F-106)
Gordon drank excessively, made public his dislike for the federal government, whored around, and in the end made a point of trying to annoy anyone on Parliament Hill he could. The Arrow was spectacular in it's achievements but was sacrificed on the alter of an alcoholic's ego.

[NARSES2]

I had a good look at that book at (I think) Cosford ? when Mike M bought his copy. Not my period of interest but it certainly opened my eys to a national industry I knew very little about

[jcf]

Owning and having read Whitcomb's Avro Aircraft & Cold War Aviation I recommend approaching his writing with a large shaker of salt.

[anthonyp]

I bought it for the pics.   

[upnorth]

I bought it for the pics.   

At least you're honest about it, so many others claim they bought it for the articles.

[GTX]

I bought it for the pics.   

At least you're honest about it, so many others claim they bought it for the articles.

We're still talking about the book here aren't we... 

Regards,

Greg

[amsci99]

Unfortunately, the author passed a few years ago. A great loss but I am unable to find anything on the internet though.

[Nick]

Having just finished this book I have to say that it sounds very well researched but the quotes appear to have been selected to promote the authors theory of it all being a Canadian muck-up with US interference. Without access to the sources I can't be sure of this.

Did spot one big blooper - the RCAF looked at a Blackburn project as an Arrow replacement. "At least a prototype was eventually built of the Blackburn NA.39 though it was not ordered into production. Unfortunately the Arrow embarrassed it in, really, any role."
Funny that, a high speed high-level interceptor being better than a low-level strike bomber. 
I think he might have it confused with another British/Blackburn project or RCAF requirement.

[upnorth]

Did spot one big blooper - the RCAF looked at a Blackburn project as an Arrow replacement. "At least a prototype was eventually built of the Blackburn NA.39 though it was not ordered into production. Unfortunately the Arrow embarrassed it in, really, any role."
Funny that, a high speed high-level interceptor being better than a low-level strike bomber. 
I think he might have it confused with another British/Blackburn project or RCAF requirement.

Yeah, looking at the Buccaneer prototype as an Arrow replacement would be like asking a badger to substitute for a peregrine falcon. Respectable beasts both, just not interchangeable.

[overscan]

Its worth buying for some of the cool piccies and some of the original information presented, but Mr Randall Whitcomb came across as frankly several sandwiches short of a picnic. Evil forces (mostly American) conspire to destroy the plucky Canadian aircraft industry.

Take his opinions with lots of salt.

[Doc Yo]

 It sounds like an interesting read. I'll have to see if I can get it via ILL. In the meantime, what is that gorgeous
brute on the front cover, and are there plan views?

[elmayerle]

Did spot one big blooper - the RCAF looked at a Blackburn project as an Arrow replacement. "At least a prototype was eventually built of the Blackburn NA.39 though it was not ordered into production. Unfortunately the Arrow embarrassed it in, really, any role."
Funny that, a high speed high-level interceptor being better than a low-level strike bomber. 
I think he might have it confused with another British/Blackburn project or RCAF requirement.

I think the Blackburn project in reference was the B.109 derivative of the basic Buccaneer.  It's quite an interesting book and was a while in the making.  Would it be boasting if I said my copy, obtained when it first came out, was autographed by Randall Whitcomb and Jim Floyd?