SEA scheme green colors

tigercat2 · April 05, 2014, 06:36:41 AM

After years of painting Air Force aircraft in the SEA cammo scheme (I am working on an F-100 at the moment), I have always wondered why the two shades of green. There is not that much difference between the medium and dark greens used, and from a few feet away (certainly a few hundred feet), the two greens are indistinguishable. Why do through the trouble to stocking and then using two very similar colors?

Wes W.

Dizzyfugu · April 07, 2014, 07:26:20 AM

I do not know the truth behind it, but I'd assume that it's got something to do with blurring the lines. While FS 34102 looks pretty much like FS 34079, it softens the contrast to the reddish FS 30219.
Another factor could IMHO be that one green alone could simply create too much of a contrast to the jungle background over land - having two tones weakens IMHO this effect.

Some time ago I was amused by Soviet/Russian four-tone tactical paint schemes (which incorporate all kinds of greens, tans and browns) - but once you have such aircraft over the proper landscape, the effect is pretty stunning. I think the SEA scheme just works the same way, with three tones, though.

NARSES2 · April 07, 2014, 07:30:24 AM

Quote from: Dizzyfugu on April 07, 2014, 07:26:20 AM

Some time ago I was amused by Soviet/Russian four-tone tactical paint schemes (which incorporate all kinds of greens, tans and browns) - but once you have such aircraft over the proper landscape, the effect is pretty stunning. I think the SEA scheme just works the same way, with three tones, though.

Yes you need to see aircraft over the terrain the camouflage was intended for in order to really see how effective it was/is

Dizzyfugu · April 07, 2014, 07:57:30 AM

In fact, I was amazed how effective the SEA scheme is when you see USAF aircraft flying at low level over Vietnam. FS 30219 matches perfectly with the many muddy rivers, and the two tones of green create a very effective shadow/sun contrast over forested area. Would hardly work anywhere else, IMHO.

tigercat2 · April 07, 2014, 12:29:00 PM

Thanks for all the answers. It would be interesting to know what the development process was for the USAF SEA cammo scheme; I know that a few RF-101s were painted in some experimental schemes (some with full color and full size stars and bars), but were there other schemes tried on other aircraft?

Wes W.

Captain Canada · April 07, 2014, 01:37:58 PM

I think they used the second green because it just looks cool.

That, or they wanted JMNs to argue about the colour 40 years later !

Dizzyfugu · April 08, 2014, 12:14:51 AM

I know that the USN experimented a lot with carrier-based aircraft. The grey/white USN scheme stood out in front of the green jungle background, and several experiments with greens, grey and brown were made on A-1, A-4, A-6 and RA-5Cs. What amazes me is that this was eventually not adopted - the USN aircraft remained in their hi-viz livery, while the USAF settled for the SEA scheme.

Concerning experiments, I also know that there were "inverted" SEA schemes on F-105s - the color fields were switched, there was much more FS 30129. Probably every 20th aircraft was delivered that way, and it did not catch on, either.

I am not certain whether the large "stars and bars" on the RF-101s were experimental, I know hat you mean. I'd rather suspect that these were applied purposely in order to avoid friendly fire during low level flights.

DogfighterZen · October 10, 2016, 07:08:55 AM

Thread revival time...

Reading this reminded me of a pic i saw of a PoAF A-7P back in 84, just a couple of years after they were delivered.

They had the normal SEA scheme for a few years but were painted in the wraparound scheme after the PoAF markings were revised in 1991,IIRC.
I posted the pic cause i think it shows why the 2 tones of green were used. Although it's flying over water on this one, you can see the different tones in the land patches on the background, so i imagine that it would work well at a greater distance, flying over land.

TheChronicOne · October 10, 2016, 08:09:12 AM

Yeah, I was going to say that, to my eyes, the shades of green contrast pretty sharply. They don't look nearly indistinguishable at all, to me. For a longest time I thought the darker shade was actually BLACK. The problem is I was confusing or lumping SEA together with the 80s US Army woodland camo. Embarrassingly, it wasn't that long ago that I finally noticed the differences and realized what I was looking at.

Just for giggles. I'll probably use this here as a guide for the actual shapes and layout because from I've learned, the schemes aren't just randomly paint on, they're actually standardised.

Always loved this camoflauge!!

Librarian · October 10, 2016, 11:57:27 AM

....and you have to be soooo careful with black and white photos. Sometimes that black underside was actually the darker green. I think Combat Lancer F-111As had underside green.

Gondor · October 10, 2016, 11:37:50 PM

Quote from: Librarian on October 10, 2016, 11:57:27 AM
....and you have to be soooo careful with black and white photos. Sometimes that black underside was actually the darker green. I think Combat Lancer F-111As had underside green.

They actually did have black undersides

Gondor

Dizzyfugu · October 11, 2016, 05:41:06 AM

You can neither trust full color photos, either. Depending on light and weathering, even clearly defined colors/cammo tones can look totally different from the "real thing". Even your local monitor changes the the impression of the picture.

Worst case I remember was my first, grainy picture of an Israeli IAI Kfir in a book, a machine with early three-tone "Café au lait" cammo with yellow triangles in flight, but photographed against the sun, so that the contrast was pretty harsh. Anyway, I wanted to build/convert one from the then-new Italeri F-21 kit, and painted it in very light grey and dark olive drab - that's what I saw in the picture, without any other reference! Totally wrong, though...

Always do legwork and look for cross-references!

Librarian · October 11, 2016, 05:41:32 AM

Check out Two Bobs 48-067...does seem surprising but green it was on the first Combat Lancer deployment. There's a colour photo somewhere of a Skyraider using green too....I'll try and locate it.

NARSES2 · October 11, 2016, 06:59:51 AM

Some early film stock completely reverses the look of colours in b/w photos. Stands out a mile when you look at the roundels but if you didn't know ?

Colour and colour perception is a minefield and one I don't go anywhere near. I am convinced we all see colours differently. It's well know women and men perceive colour differently

, but talking to people I think we all see it differently, especially blues and greens and the colours in between.

Just a personal view.