Torpedoes

[PanzerWulff]

I need a hand getting the scale measurments right to scratchbuild a set of 1/48 scale Mk.46/Mk.50 torpedos (I am hopless with math) heres the info I have on the full size weapons  Mk.50 legnth 112 inches diamater 12.75 inches Mk.46 legnth 102.36 inches diamater 12.75 inches.I just need a hand converting the dimensions to 1/48 thanks for the help    
"Panzer"  

[jcf]

Divide the dimensions by 48.
For example:
112/48=2.33"

Cheers, Jon

[Jeffry Fontaine]

For those folks that are interested, there is a nice graphic resource with a lot of data for torpedos used by the U.S. Navy and our allies at this link: http://hnsa.org/doc/jolie/index.htm.  The drawings included for each weapon are basic but give you an idea of what the actual torpedo looked like and there is dimensional data included for just about every entry. 

The home page link is http://hnsa.org/index.htm

[jcf]

That's a great link, but they're missing the latest air droppable torpedoes (the Mk 50 and Mk 54).  Just my minor quibble.

Thanks for posting!

Not surprising as the document is from 1978.

NUSC Technical Document 5436
15 September 1978

[sequoiaranger]

The first self-propelled underwater explosive device we now know as the torpedo was developed by an English engineer, Robert Whitehead, for the Austrian Navy in the latter half of the 19th century. Another contemporary torpedo pioneer, US Navy Lt.Cmdr. John A. Howell, competed for torpedo contracts, but the Whitehead designs, and Bliss-Leavitt manufacturers for the US Navy, won out.

With the death of the torpedo pioneers, the sons of both continued with underwater propulsion inventions and development. The younger Howell was sure that underwater vessels would be the ships of the future, so went about developing underwater propulsion systems for exploratory vessels, and as a sideline to pay the bills, ordnance for the Navy. He and the younger Whitehead collaborated to form a new company together in the late 30's, founding the Underwater Exploration Boat Company, known as "UXB", until those initials became publicly known for "Un-eXploded Bombs". They thought that might not instill confidence in their products so they formed the Whitehead-Howell Ordnance Company to study and research "modern" underwater capabilities.

When one of the Japanese Long-Lance oxygen-fueled torpedoes washed up on a Javanese island after the Sunda Strait battle in early 1942, the US Navy gave the torpedo to Whitehead-Howell Ordnance Company and gave them a mandate to create something similar for the US Navy, not only for shipboard and submarine-launched usage, but an aerial version as well. The Long Lance was extremely bulky and heavy for an aerial torpedo, but Howell and Whitehead found a way to miniaturize and lighten the structures and components, reduce risks and dangers of propellant handling, while keeping a large, powerful warhead.

Their first venture, "Whoot" (Whitehead-Howell Ordnance Oxygen-fuelled Torpedo) had a unique exploder that used a sonic Doppler-type proximity fuse and a floating firing pin that worked on inertia (when the torpedo suddenly stopped, the inertia kept the firing pin going and set off the torpedo). Though quite clever, the ship version was prematurely distributed without thorough testing to US Navy ships and it worked poorly, earning the name "Whoopsie" for "Whitehead-Howell Ordnance Oxygen-Propelled Sonic Inertial Exploder" and was the butt of black-humored jokes and the cause of wartime casualties and bitter enmity.

Stung by their failure and seeking redemption, the Ordnance team developed a large-though-lightweight improved version that became a new standard for the US Navy. It was tested extensively so no embarrassing problems would develop. Its size and speed was unprecedented, and thought needed for the new generation of super-battleships and other warships greater than 50,000 tons. This monstrous 26" diameter, 18-foot long underwater weapon had the appropriate name "Whopper"—"Whitehead-Howell Ordnance, Peroxide Propelled, Exploder Rectified".

Its first operational use was during the Marianas campaign, when the USS Hornet and Bunker Hill picked up both the torpedoes and the new Navy attack bomber to carry them--the Douglas Decimator--at Pearl. The Decimator could carry two of these in normal operation, and three for short-range attacks. The super-carriers Musashi and Shinano, damaged and limping away from their "Turkey Shoot" encounter, were found by the Decimators and the Whopper lived up to its name. Towering explosions the likes that none of the combatants had ever seen, gouged open the sides of the leviathans and sent them to the bottom.

The picture below (currently, as of Oct 6, 09, this is the only picture I can muster) shows a Bliss-Leavitt Mk 13 torpedo from the 1/72 Airfix Douglas Devastator (a spares-box example that would need work if put on a model) alongside the yet-incompletely built "Whopper" that will be included in my "Douglas Decimator" whiff (torpedoes came from the 1/72 Siga Martin Mauler kit). When I get the Whopper to a "model-mountable" state of completion, I will post a better picture.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Do you have a candidate Mark Number and Mod Number in mind for your WHIF weapon? 

Your WHOPPER is definitely a heavy-weight weapon with much larger dimensions when compared to the Mk 13 shape in your image. 

The published 1/1 scale dimensions for the Mk 13 are 22.4" ( 570.0 mm) in diameter  and 13.4' (13 ft. 5 in)(4.09 m) in length.
in 1/72nd scale these dimensions should be about 0.32" (7.92 mm) diameter and 2.24" (56.8 mm) in length (with a +/- .05% in tolerance)

Some links to the Mk 13 [Mk XIII] Torpedo on-line:

Wikipedia - Mk 13 Torpedo (from the Wikipedia List - Torpedoes of the United States
NavWeaps page on U.S Torpedoes of World War II (link to NavWeaps main page: http://www.navweaps.com/)
John Drain's www.pt-boat.com page on torpedoes (link to main page: http://www.pt-boat.com/
Eugene Slover's Naval Ordnance and Gunnery Page, (Chapter 12 Torpedoes)
National Museum of the Air Force, WP AFB, OH fact sheet on the Bliss-Leavitt Mark XIII Aerial Torpedo (link to the NMAF main page:  http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/index.asp)

[sequoiaranger]

>Do you have a candidate Mark Number and Mod Number in mind for your WHIF weapon?
Your WHOPPER is definitely a heavy-weight weapon with much larger dimensions when compared to the Mk 13 shape in your image.<

No candidate Mark or Mod. The MkXIII was in service at the beginning of WW II and modified and served until 1958(?), according to various websites. Maybe the "Whopper" will be MkXIII-W or something. Or MkCXIII (113). Dunno.

I guess I don't get how such a HUGE weapon was included in the Siga Martin Mauler kit--it almost seems 1/55 scale or something, if it is indeed supposed to be a rendition of a Mk XIII. And, it has a pointy nose. Dumb me, I just figured it was a post-war improvement (I really know very little about post-WW II stuff) that would go with my accelerated WW II timeline for Furashita's Fleet.

Still, we are in whif-land, so ANYTHING is possible. I like to keep my whifs to reasonable extrapolations. The "Whopper" is really pushing it, I know!

[Jeffry Fontaine]

>Do you have a candidate Mark Number and Mod Number in mind for your WHIF weapon?
Your WHOPPER is definitely a heavy-weight weapon with much larger dimensions when compared to the Mk 13 shape in your image.<

No candidate Mark or Mod. The MkXIII was in service at the beginning of WW II and modified and served until 1958(?), according to various websites. Maybe the "Whopper" will be MkXIII-W or something. Or MkCXIII (113). Dunno.

I guess I don't get how such a HUGE weapon was included in the Siga Martin Mauler kit--it almost seems 1/55 scale or something, if it is indeed supposed to be a rendition of a Mk XIII. And, it has a pointy nose. Dumb me, I just figured it was a post-war improvement (I really know very little about post-WW II stuff) that would go with my accelerated WW II timeline for Furashita's Fleet.

Still, we are in whif-land, so ANYTHING is possible. I like to keep my whifs to reasonable extrapolations. The "Whopper" is really pushing it, I know!

The Mk 25 aircraft torpedo* was under development to replace the Mk 13 and it had the same dimensions so that leaves you with an option that would see you using other more in scale Mk 13 torpedo shapes or coming up with a back story to fit with the new shape.  Another option would be to chop it down a bit and turn it into an aircraft delivered mine which would allow for the larger diameter and packing three of those on your Decimator might work.  Maybe you will need to build a second Decimator now armed with mines and the original armed with torpedo shapes. 


*Mentioned in passing on the NavWeaps torpedo page as the intended as a replacement for the Mark 13.  Under development in 1945 but never mass produced because of large postwar stocks of other torpedoes. 

Additional reading with some crude drawings available from

HNSA documents archive in a pamphlet titled NUSC Technical Document 5436 "A Brief History of U.S. Navy Torpedo Development," 15 September 1978 (written by E.W. Jolie) "Sometimes referred to as OP 353W or TD5436.  The document provides basic information on most US Navy torpedoes up to 1978 (Submarine, Surface and Air)."

Torpedo Mk 25


Sponsored by the National Defense Research Committee, Torpedo Mk 25 was developed by Columbia University, Division of War Research, as a replacement for Torpedo Mk 13. The new torpedo was an aircraft-launched, antisurface ship weapon designed for higher speed, greater strength and more ease of manufacture than the Mk 13 torpedo. Torpedo Mk 25 had thermal propulsion, was turbine driven and obtained a speed of 40 knots and a range of 2500 yards. Twenty-five units were produced by the Naval Ordnance Plant, Forest Park, Ill., during 1946 for test and evaluation. This torpedo was never mass-produced, however, due to the large inventory of Mk 13 torpedoes left at the end of World War II, and the changing role of Naval aircraft from a torpedo strike warfare platform to an antisubmarine warfare platform.

I guess you could just claim your Whopper is a 26.0" 650 mm torpedo which could account for the larger diameter.  Claim it was developed specifically to kill Yamato and Bismark type targets where larger warheads were required to overcome the torpedo belt armor of these larger warships. 

[sequoiaranger]

>...so that leaves you with an option that would see you using other more in scale Mk 13 torpedo shapes or coming up with a back story to fit with the new shape.  I guess you could just claim your Whopper is a 26.0" 650 mm torpedo which could account for the larger diameter.  Claim it was developed specifically to kill Yamato and Bismark type targets where larger warheads were required to overcome the torpedo belt armor of these larger warships. <

Yup! Bigger bang for bulkier battlewagons! Backstory now backdated into the original post!

BTW, I carefully measured the (supposedly a Mk XIII) torpedo that came with the Airfix TBD Devastator, and though it is supposed to be 22.4 inches in diameter, it measured out to be 19" in scale. Tsk, Tsk.

[jcf]

The big aerial torpedo concept isn't too much of a stretch as pre-war the Hall-Aluminum Aircraft Company built the XPTBH-2
to a USN requirement for an aircraft capable of carrying the standard destroyer-type weapon. Going for a bigger punch by
increasing diameter is logical. 



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[Cliffy B]

Hey guys, was wondering if anyone knew of any aftermarket fish in 1/48, 1/72, and/or 1/144?  I've got some whiffs in mind but I need some WWII USN aerial fish.  Some FIDOs would be great too albeit an extreme long shot.  I haven't been bale to find any yet and I'm guessing I'll have to scratch them.  Anyone have any tips/tricks on how to go about it all?

Thanks in advance,

-Mike