Shipboard Autogiro

[tigercat]

Would a shipboard Autogiro be feasible. It would need to be catapult launched but how much room would it need to land? Would a giro-pad be sufficent. Would it be worth the effort or would a standard floatplane do all the same things 

[PR19_Kit]

Maybe it wouldn't need a catapult.

As autogyros can fly at very low airspeeds the wind over the bow of the ship maybe enough for one to lift-off vertically anyway. The Kriegsmarine used that crazy Fa-330 that was towed off the deck of a U boat, and they flew fine. OK, they didn't have an engine, but the wind plus the speed of the U boat was enough to keep them up.

[tigercat]

 would that mean that the Giro-pad would need to be at the bows to prevent the superstructure blanking off th ewind?

[Rheged]

Maybe it wouldn't need a catapult.

As autogyros can fly at very low airspeeds the wind over the bow of the ship maybe enough for one to lift-off vertically anyway. The Kriegsmarine used that crazy Fa-330 that was towed off the deck of a U boat, and they flew fine. OK, they didn't have an engine, but the wind plus the speed of the U boat was enough to keep them up.

Two shreds of information to add to this thread.  
1     I have a vague memory of reading that the pre-war Weir autogyro had a clutch coupling that would allow  the rotors to be spun up for a "jump" take off. Can anyone confirm this?

2     The Fa-330 had a specific ditching procedure if the U-boat towing it had to dive suddenly.  The rotors were discarded, allowing deployment of a parachute to bring the hapless pilot safely into the sea where, according to a post war Admiralty report "....the pilot then drowns in the traditional fashion....."  Back in the 70's the BBC did a series called "Secret War"  that featured this  machine among many others including the Flying Jeep!!

[PR19_Kit]

Rheged,

You're dead right about the 'Jump start'. Most of the autogyros in the late 30 could do that, Kellett, Cierva and Weir all had that option available. It'd be ideal for tigetcat's ideas.

Tigercat,

You could have a pad in the bows and the stern I reckon, then you could use the best one for the job. The autogyro could land almost vertically in zero winds, once it had airflow up through its rotor, so a non-jumpstart autogyro probably would need the take-off pad in the bows. The German flying boat service ships used on the South Atlantic routes had tracks either side of the superstructure to move their 'boats from the stern, where they were craned aboard, to the bows where they were catapulted off, so there's plenty of support for those sort of ideas.

[tigercat]

Excellent  I have an idea involving most of a Fairey Swordfish and that mid Atlantic Convoys didn't need CAM ships with fighters but ships with  anti submarine aircraft.

[Weaver]

It's long been a puzzle to me why autogiros didn't see more naval use before the invention of the helicopter. It's not as if the floatplanes of the day were stunning performers, and the autogiro would be FAR easier to recover.

My idea for a gunnery warship would be to have a platform on the stern, behind the aft gun turret, that could be swung out to either side (compensating balance weights going the other way) to get it clear of the superstructure turbulence. The autogiro would be hangared in the aft end of the superstructure, and rolled out to the platform on rails that ran around the aft gun turret.

[sandiego89]

The Japanese did it!  Search for the Kayaba Ka-1 or Kayaba Ka-2.  This was a copy of the American Kellet autogyro.  Check out this clip on you tube, around minute 5 it shows carrier trials.  Looks like a very short landing and takoff run, maybe 50 feet.  Very feasible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EFt7cLCRSY

[Joe C-P]

Autogyros suffered from a lack of carrying capacity. I am going to build a Kayman 1/48 (can't recall the maker of the model right now) and will blank off the forward cockpit to reduce the mass carried to allow for more fuel and some small depth charges, for the RN.

[Weaver]

Build more powerful ones then! Just because most inter-war autogiros were small doesn't mean they had to be: Stick a Mercury on it!

[rickshaw]

The Japanese Army operated autogyros off their aircraft carriers (yes, that is correct!  The Japanese Army had aircraft carriers!).  The Taiyō Maru, Unyo Maru, Chuyo Maru, Kaiyō Maru, Shinyo Maru, Kamakura Maru, Akitsu Maru, Nigitsu Maru, Kumano Maru, Yamashiro Maru, Chigusa Maru, Shimane Maru, and Otakisan Maru were light escort carriers converted from merchant ships by the IJA.  They either carried autogyros or the Japanese equivalent to the Fiesler Storch.  Flown with only a pilot they could carry two light depth charges.

[jcf]

The Japanese Army carriers were the Akitsu Maru, Nigitsu Maru and Kumano Maru.
They were actually aircraft transport/landing support ships rather than true aircraft carriers. The Kayaba autogiro
and the Ki 76 Kokusai both saw limited anti-sub use from the Akitsu Maru, and in the case of the Ki 76, not
too successfully. Most of the anti-sub work was from land bases.

Of the others on the list the Taiyo, Chuyo and Unyo were Imperial Japanese Navy escort carriers
converted from the 17,000 ton NYK Line liners Kasuga Maru, Nitta Maru and Yawata Maru.
Other IJN escort carriers were the Kaiyo and Shinyo converted, respectively, from
the Argentina Maru and ex-German liner Scharnhorst.

IJN merchant carrier conversions were built on the basis of Kawasaki's standard 1TL oil tanker,
these were the Otakisan Maru and Shimane Maru along with other canceled vessels numbered
14 and 16. Otakisan Maru was sunk 25-8-45 by a mine while 70% complete.
Shimane Maru was sunk by planes of TF38 on 24-7-45

The Japanese Army followed suit and ordered two Mitsubishi 2TL oil tankers for conversion, Chigusa Maru and Yamashiro Maru.
Chigusa Maru wasn't completed until 1949, Yamashiro Maru was sunk in Yokohama Bay 17-2-45.

The other Army vessel not mentioned was the Shinshu Maru, the world's original LSD, which carried aircraft
and landing craft.

The Kamakura Maru was an NYK Line vessel that spent the war chartered to the IJN as a passenger vessel:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/Kamakura_t.htm
http://www.combinedfleet.com/Kokansen.htm
While conversion to escort carrier was intended, she was sunk before work could begin.

The Wiki entry on IJA escort carriers is way off.

[rickshaw]

Thanks for the correction.

[KiwiZac]

Im loving this discussion! Can't wait to see the models that eventuate :-D

The first time I saw footage of a gyro "jumpstart" I was stunned, so sharp and sudden.