Operation Downfall markings

[madcatter]

Very true but they didn't throw everything they had at Okinawa.  They knew an invasion was coming and they held a lot back in preparation for it.  Would it have made a difference?  Not really, defeat was inevitable.  That's not to say they didn't have some nasty surprises waiting.


For example, the Me-163 was far from a success and the cost of the program itself far outweighed it's few victories.  On the other hand, news of these 'unstoppable' rocket interceptors scared the hell out the bomber crews.  No one in the allied camp knew how wasteful or dangerous the Komet was to the Germans.  All they knew was they were helpless to defeat them and swarms of them attacking a single allied raid would be devastating.  Hindsight tells us otherwise.  But at the time, it was a very different story indeed.

-N8

[rickshaw]

According to the book I'm presently reading on Operation DOWNFALL the Allies estimated that the Japanese had ~2500+ aircraft available to them in August 1945.  The Japanese themselves estimated that they had in fact ~3000+ aircraft.  This was with sufficient fuel for at least a week's operation at an unknown sortie rate. 

The USN and US Army were having a long running debate over aircraft estimates, both were wildly short of the mark, with 2500 being the upper limit of their estimates.  Many of the Japanese aircraft (about half) were trainers of various types but all could carry at least a 250lb bomb or more.  Saturation attacks were likely.  Far from being lawn ornaments they were likely to inflict serious damage on the invasion fleet if DOWNFALL or CORONET had gone ahead.  Interception would have been difficult with detection very hard, particularly the closer the fleet operated to the Japanese islands, which would have masked attackers from radar and made visual identification difficult.  One advantage the small trainers had was that they could operate from improvised airstrips such as roads, near to the invasion beaches.   The Japanese planned and actually did disperse them all over Kyushu and Honshu.

[sequoiaranger]

IMHO, orange or red markings would probably NOT have been used in Operation Downfall. Red was taken out of *ALL* Allied markings early in the war BECAUSE Japanese markings had red in them (not only Hinomarus, but other aircraft decoration), and the Japanese identifying leading-edge wing bars were orange/yellow, too.  I think the idea was that if you saw ANY red---SHOOT AT IT! The brief flirtation with the red outline to the star-and-bar in the summer of 1943 was just that---BRIEF. I would think that Allied aircraft would shy away from ANY yellow, orange, or red for those reasons alone.

I would vote for black and white.

[Taiidantomcat]

I chose orange and yellow simpley because I was looking for an excuse to use orange paint and I wanted something bright. The story came about as a way to explain an application of orange.

... that Idea with high contrast in mind is making me think Black and Orange stripes ... A variation on your candy corn/ halloween theme, comrade.

[comrade harps]

IMHO, orange or red markings would probably NOT have been used in Operation Downfall. Red was taken out of *ALL* Allied markings early in the war BECAUSE Japanese markings had red in them (not only Hinomarus, but other aircraft decoration), and the Japanese identifying leading-edge wing bars were orange/yellow, too.  I think the idea was that if you saw ANY red---SHOOT AT IT! The brief flirtation with the red outline to the star-and-bar in the summer of 1943 was just that---BRIEF. I would think that Allied aircraft would shy away from ANY yellow, orange, or red for those reasons alone.

Not quite. There are plenty of examples where colours used by the Japanese were not totally eliminated - and indeed, some where they were boldly adopted.

The Netherlands East Indies replaced their orange triangle neutrality markings in 1942 with a red, white and blue markings, keeping it until the end of the war -they were no longer neutral:


When the Mexicans went to war against the Japanese over the Philipines, they used a combo of USAAF star and bars and red, white and green Mexican national markings. Note also the yellow outline on the black ID stripes:


Also, even though the RNZAF eliminated red from their roundels and opted for a rather attractive blue and white circle with bars affair, this featured a thin yellow outline - they also used a slim red, white and blue fin flash. The first example even has a yellow nose ring and the second a yellow number on the tail:




The USAAF's 343rd Fighter Group used lots of yellow on their P-40 in the Aleutians fighting the Japanese.


To take the idea of removing anything colour that the Japanese used would have meant removing white from Allied planes, as there was often a white ring around the Hinomaru (or white square or band for 1944-45 home defence planes) and white unit markings, but obviously this was not done - indeed, more white was often added, such as the American white bars, SEAC's white stripes and the RAAF's white tails.

As for the Japanese used of orange, they applied orange overall on their trainers and prototypes, but during 1944 added green camo to the upper and side surfaces. I will speculate that in a Downfall what if universe where air superiority had been lost over the home islands and where all trainers had become kamikaze platforms, that even the orange undersides would have been removed.

[NARSES2]

That Mitchell or a similar profile was proof of the old adage "you are never to old to learn" for me. I'd never ever seen those national markings until a few months ago when I saw a Dutch Decals sheet. If I'd have seen it prior to that then I would have said "oh no not WWII but just after in the Dutch East Indies"

As for "orange" on Japanese trainers. Might have been useful for sunrise/sunset kamikaze attacks ?

Chris

[sequoiaranger]

>Not Quite. There are plenty of examples where colours [red and orange] used by the Japanese were not totally eliminated [on Allied aircraft] - and indeed, some where they were boldly adopted.<

Not quite. Those aircraft you mentioned were in the BACKWATER areas and NOT the forefront of combat. During an invasion on the scale of Downfall, the K.I.S.S. principle would be imperative. If I were Mac (or whomever was slated to be overall commander) I would insist on deleting all red or orange for simplicity's sake.

>As for "orange" on Japanese trainers. Might have been useful for sunrise/sunset kamikaze attacks ?<

Quite so. Supposedly many "Rufe"s (Zero floatplane fighters) sported an overall light purple/magenta for such purposes. My crackpot mind will, of course, take this to ridiculous lengths when my "Suisei-Kai" whif comes out (down the list a ways) in "Brilliant Sunset" camo where the Hinomaru is the dullest thing on the wing.

[comrade harps]

Point taken about backwaters. I was just qualifiying an absolute statement about "ALL" and "ANY".

As for the sunrise/sunset camo, I wasn't aware of that and it raises some fun ideas for pink or lavender nosejobs and on the wing leading edges of kamikaze planes. 

In reality, I reckon you'd pretty much stick with black and white D-Day stripes, or big black stripes on NMF planes as the 5th Air Force used and white stripes on USN dark blue planes.

As to the kind of aerial defence that Japanese could still put up by X-Day, that's another matter. Yes, they may have had up to 4,000 planes ready for one last throw of the dice ready in August 1945, but by the time of any invasion this may well have been depleted by airfield bombing, a lack of fuel and a proposed naval feint to absorb the divine wind before the invasion.