Supermarine Scimitar

[Zen]

I've read the RAF did show interest in the Scimitar precisely for strike, since it could carry a nuclear weapon, whereas the Hunter could'nt.

P1154 was tendered to NMBR.3 for NATO Airforces, naval variants where I think not part of the requirements.

RN was looking at that time towards OR.346, thought the NMBR.3 winner might do the job of short range attack and strike, but also thought it detracted from the effort to get OR.346.
RAF where much more interested in the P1154.

With a Scimitar FAW valid for longer, and maybe supersonic, retaining its validity after the 1964 Tsushino airdisplay by the Soviets of their air launched anti-ship missiles, the drive to buy F4 is much lessend, since the FAA already have a supersonic SARH missile toting fighter. It makes more sense in the short term at that point, to continue to upgrade the Scimitar FAW, and their eyes are more likely to focus on the Fighter abilities of OR.346 or the USN's being foisted with the F111B.
Long term the RN will be eyeing up the GAR-9 and AIM54 combination. As this potentialy reduces the number of Fighters a CV needs to provide aircover, due to its ability to engage several targets at once.

It is possible however we might see the use of the 500gal droptanks proposed for the strike Scimitar used on the FAW to extend its endurance on CAP, assuming the switch to CAP from DLI occures along with the cancelation of the Saro P.177 in 1957.

When Labour enter government in early 1965, the Scimitar would already be in service, with at least five years of validity left if not more. TSR.2 will still get canceld, F111 still ordered, still dropped and a make do and mend with Buccanners while they search for a multinational project. AFVG, UKVG, then MRCA.

RAF might get the P1154, but basing restrictions will kill off the dispersed airfield concept pretty quickly, and the supersonic trainer would be dropped about midway through in favour of a subsonic trainer.

SO no Jaguar, and no F4 in this scenario.
CVA-01 could be different.

[TsrJoe]

re the above, iv the Hunter drawing mentioned somewhere in the files toting a Hunting 'Red Beard' store beneath the port wing ( a fuel tank is mounted stb.) its marked as 'Hunter with tactical weapon' and shows an F.6 type aircraft with dog tooth leading edge!

(my fav drawing in the same series is one prepared for the Swedish Air Force with a large RB.04 missile beneath each wing! something different for sure!)

cheers, Joe

[Zen]

Hmm......

More thoughts.

Red Steer was a refinement of the AI.20 set with again a 18 inch dish.
Development was during the late 50's showing something of how the AI.20 might have progressed.
Magnetron was improved to 130Kw reducing signal noise ratio.
There seems to have been use of early transistors, which where rare and very expensive.

Hunter detection at 75% reliability was 10nm, rising to 100% at 8nm which is itself an improvement on earlier.
A bomber would be visible at greater ranges, its seems plausable that a large bomber would produce more than four times the signal return strength of a Hunter, so maybe even detection at 20nm!

A doubling of dish area results in roughly a 25 inch dish, but the later improvements in the late 60's increased the dish to 24 inches.
Range for the improved set was increased, but is not quoted.

All this was done I suspect on a limited budget, so it does raise the question of what could be achieved if AI.20 had continued with decent funding.

However we can triple the dish size to 31 inches or quadruple it to 36 inches.

[Tornado]

This is one of my arguements. Firstly the AI.20 offered a useful interim lightweight radar for installation in the Scimitar and other light fighters (maybe the Gnat and Midge?) while further improvement could have easily produced a set equal to the AI.23 (though there is need for two radars the same and it does rob funds for other projects). Also a bigger AI.20/Red Steer that you propose being a CW radar would have made integration of guided AAMs much easier than the efforts to retro-fit the AI.18 with the neccessary equipment.

Since Red Steer's performance is still a state secret until 2028 I guess that scuppered any exports or further development as a fighter radar as much as the existance of the AI.23. The RAF would do anything to keep the V-Fleet's defensive systems a secret.

[Zen]

I think theres nothing wrong with the idea of persuing two seperate types of fighter radar here. Its clear AI.20 is the only certain functional X-band radar with a narrow beam for target illumination available from the UK.
AI.18 although X-band had signal polarity issues, and AI.23 had other integration issues being I-band.

So persuite of AI.20 in developed form makes sense if the RAF and RN wish to have a radar guided AAM.

I might have been the option to take if the F155T fighter had continued, matching Red Hebe or the scaled Vickers Small Weapon with it rather than the potentialy more problematic task of getting a X-band illuminator working on AI.23.
Irony is considering the '57 review is that interception of a medium or low level bomber makes AI.20 and a SARH AAM more attractive.

I'm sure some other set would've been procured or developed for the V-force instead or even just a derivative of the AI.20 as was.

Not sure how well it would fit the smaller Gnat or Midge or whether they could power such a set.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Here is a link to a pair of images showing Scimitar underwing stores pylons that might be of interest to anyone trying to bomb up a Scimitar. 

[Daryl J.]

Canadian.   Natural Metal finish with suitable red/black Canadian markings.