German Zero Me-A6M

[Old Wombat]

More powerful engine, strengthened wings, cockpit armour, self-sealing tanks &, eventually, 20mm cannon.

Maybe so, but then it wouldn't have been so agile as it would have been heavier, thus losing its major advantage.

True but it depends on how much extra strength was actually needed, how that could be achieved with a minimum mass increase & how that mass was distributed, too. Much would depend on ol' Willy & his design team as to whether they could re-design it & keep it, at least, almost as manoeuvrable.



Guy

[Librarian]

Actually, initially, it was the Buffaloes & Wirraways that didn't do too well over Darwin

I did read recently, maybe that book on Buffaloes over Singapore (or something like that), that the Buffalo did far better than has been assumed. Yes, they were whittled down to almost nothing but in the process they held their own. The Japanese had the replacements, we didn't. Why the Buffalo has received bad press is beyond me. It really didn't do too badly wherever it fought...in the Pacific its defeat was inevitable as replacements for losses against overwhelming numbers was the norm. In Finland it fought superbly. Several USN/USMC pilots made mention after the war that they were very fond of this tubby fighter.

[MikeD]

this tubby fighter.

I suspect that's why - it doesn't look like a 'proper' fighter (like the Spitfire, Mustang, Bf-109 etc) and it suffered heavy losses against the Japanese therefore it's easy to write it off as being hopeless rather than assess things like early warning, strength of opponents, available reserves etc.

[Madoc]

Librarian,

Weight.  The Buffalo was designed as a carrier bird and thus it was stuffed with all the goods 'n gear carrier birds need - but which land based birds don't.  The design was fine without all that weighty stuff and when they then installed it all the bird's handling suffered as you'd expect.  The Finns stripped all of that stuff out that they could.  PLUS they were up against the "second string" of Red Air Force pilots (if even that good) flying even more outmoded birds.  By the time the Soviets had enough top-of-the-line birds to outfit the units facing the Finns, those Finish pilots had gained even more experience in air combat.

The design had limited expansion capability and was rather marginal, performance-wise, when it came into service.  The Wildcat, in comparison, had a lot more expansion capability from its outset and even with the same maritime operational gear added it still possessed superior handling and performance.  Plus the Buffalo was produced by the Brewster Company and they had some rather outstanding management, operations, and production problems which they never got a good grip on.  So bad was it that the US Government stepped in and took things over before shutting the company down during the war.

All of that really didn't help the lasting reputation of the Buffalo.  Brewster's Buccaneer didn't help things either.

[buzzbomb]

Well I just like how this came out... and for what looks like a brush paint job.. well done

[Army of One]

I think the model is finished well and with a thoughtful and what looks like  reasonable scheme for the time frame mentioned. Not wanting to pick a fight with anyone. It what have other fighters over another part of the world got to do with this build.....?? I think comments should be kept to the subject displayed and any other discussion started on another thread elsewhere....this to me is a model presented in true 'what if...?' style...this is just my £1.69 worth and I imagine I have said/typed what a lot of people may be thinking.....not having a go at anyone in particular......enjoy the model for what it is.....here endeth my £1.69 worth.....

[Glenn Gilbertson]

A beautiful model and a good idea. Personally, I am glad to see the discussion that it has provoked.

[Old Wombat]

I didn't intend to ruffle feathers with a hardcore discussion, but I think the Zero would have been very helpful in the Battle of Britain.  The German pilots were in a position to use it's strengths much like the Japanese pilots vs the Americans, for a short time.  The German version does not have to be a faithful copy of the japanese naval A6M.  Hopefully it would have been fitted with their BMW radial, and toughened up, and finally replaced with the FW 190 that may have then been built with better range.  They hung in with the Me-109 too long.  The German system bred great innovation, but terrible administration.

Fritz13, my friend, this isn't (wasn't?) a hard-core discussion, this was (is?) friendly banter!

Your wonderful work inspired various thoughts of alternates to your Whifverse, some more "Real World" than yours, but none has more merit than any other & yours works fine. It's just exercise for the old grey cells. I, for one, am glad of it in my build threads (you wont see much from me for the next 6 months but that's life & work) because they sometimes (read "often") spark new ideas - some of which may even get built (but probably not in this lifetime, at the rate I'm going!).



Guy

[rickshaw]

Actually, initially, it was the Buffaloes & Wirraways that didn't do too well over Darwin, then it was the P-40's that struggled. When the Spit's finally did arrive the battle became more even, except that the early warning systems were extremely primitive (spotters, coast-watchers, etc.) & the Australian &, later, American fighters often didn't have the time to get to altitude before the Japanese were on them.

Mmmm, no Buffaloes or Wirraways served as fighters over Darwin that I'm aware of.  The Spitfires did very badly initially because of their short range.  The P-40s did badly, initially because the Americans flying them were green and got lured into turning dogfights with the Japanese and as we know, that was always a fatal error.

Interesting, in tests, a lightly loaded Buffalo was used to simulate the Zero in 1942 in Australia and apparently gave a better performance than was expected against the opponents in the tests - P-40, P-400 and Boomerang.   

However, I'm sure Herr Messerschmitt would have made changes to the design to better suit European conditions & tactics, rather than just copying the Japanese design. More powerful engine, strengthened wings, cockpit armour, self-sealing tanks &, eventually, 20mm cannon.



Guy

I believe the Luftwaffe pilots would have demanded it.  Armour and self-sealing tanks at the very minimum and by 1940, cannon were required armament.   The days of purely machinegun armed fighters were either over (in the Luftwaffe) or numbered (RAF).   What you'd end up with would have been the later model Zero, which lost a great deal of it's nimbleness.

I'd expect though, the Ki-61 Hien would have been quite welcome by either the Italians or the Germans as a reverse co-operation aircraft (and it would have been given a reliable engine too! ).   The Raidan would have been a closer fit to the Luftwaffe as well.

[Old Wombat]

Actually, initially, it was the Buffaloes & Wirraways that didn't do too well over Darwin, then it was the P-40's that struggled. When the Spit's finally did arrive the battle became more even, except that the early warning systems were extremely primitive (spotters, coast-watchers, etc.) & the Australian &, later, American fighters often didn't have the time to get to altitude before the Japanese were on them.

Mmmm, no Buffaloes or Wirraways served as fighters over Darwin that I'm aware of.  The Spitfires did very badly initially because of their short range.  The P-40s did badly, initially because the Americans flying them were green and got lured into turning dogfights with the Japanese and as we know, that was always a fatal error.

OK, I'll go with that. I didn't check my memory against any other data & it was pretty sure it remembered them.



Guy

[Kerrillc]

I knew that I had seen a Zeke in German markings and I hunted arounds and found the site it's on.

http://hushkit.wordpress.com/category/aviation/the-ultimate-what-if/

It's the third one down.

On the whole build is very attractive. Can you imagine the Zero in RAF/FAA markings?

[oz rb fan]

However, I'm sure Herr Messerschmitt would have made changes to the design to better suit European conditions & tactics, rather than just copying the Japanese design. More powerful engine, strengthened wings, cockpit armour, self-sealing tanks &, eventually, 20mm cannon.

Cheers!

Guy

I believe the Luftwaffe pilots would have demanded it.  Armour and self-sealing tanks at the very minimum and by 1940, cannon were required armament.   The days of purely machinegun armed fighters were either over (in the Luftwaffe) or numbered (RAF).   What you'd end up with would have been the later model Zero, which lost a great deal of it's nimbleness.

I'd expect though, the Ki-61 Hien would have been quite welcome by either the Italians or the Germans as a reverse co-operation aircraft (and it would have been given a reliable engine too! Wink ).   The Raidan would have been a closer fit to the Luftwaffe as well.




the zero from the outset had cannon's(licence built orkelons ) up to the battle of britian self sealing tanks weren't common on fighter's..if i recall some 109's and early stips and hurricane were retro fitted with them during the battle......even when the pacific started alot of wildcats and other's didnt have them didnt have then either....the us contract for them wasnt signed till mid 1941...
the zero's biggest weakness is that it was built to a near impossible specification..wing loading...fire power...and a 950hp engine...no wonder it was compromised...no zero fought with more than 1150 hp and ask any pacific fighter pilot..in good hands it still had to be treated with respect(Sakai fought off 15 hellcats after running out of ammunition over Okinawa....after an extended fight the "green hellcat pilots left to find easier targets..Sakai landed without a single bullet hole in his plane.the japanese were said to have scoffed at the 109's lack of range...the zero would have easily reached all parts of Britain..would the battle have been turned..maybe..maybe not..if the zero hadnt been successful in Europe would the ijn pushed for the pacific war...maybe not... the zero is claimed to be one of the reasons for going down that route.





buy most of all a great model...great scheme and well carried off.

[Dizzyfugu]

I like the model and the idea, too.  

Germany seriously looked into several Japanese aircraft for license production (e. g. the Ki-46 as reconnaissance aircraft), and even Sweden considered buying the Zero for some time.

[nighthunter]

Let's not forget the British Zero, the Gloster F.5/34:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_F.5/34