Aircraft Weights by Era

[KJ_Lesnick]

Were guns ever factored into an airplane's weight (i.e. not included in OEW), were the ammo factored into OEW or loaded?

[maxmwill]

I'm not sure, however, there was one which I have been researching, the Vickers COW fighter, and that gun is listed at 200 pounds,with the pilot being offset.

[jcf]

Guns and ammo were payload, and as such were in the loading charts, and yes they were factored into loaded weight.

[KJ_Lesnick]

JCF,

I had a feeling at least the bullets were classified as a payload and not under OEW -- I thought the guns were counted as OEW though (operational planes have guns right?)

[chiglet]

(operational planes have guns right?)....
Not necessarily. Mosquito Bomber series. Unarmed bomber. ANY PR aeroplane. Unarmed. Transports
ALL "operational"  as were liaison, training, communications

And yes the Westland C.O.W. fighter was a bit of a cow, wasn't it?

[KJ_Lesnick]

By the jet-age were the guns and ammo still not factored in as OEW?  I'd almost swear by the F-16, the gun was counted as the OEW (the ammo I don't think was)

[sandiego89]

Not sure if it has changed over the years, but I thought fixed guns (armament) were included in empty weight.  Ammo (and other expendables such as fuel, bombs) were not.

US Army aviation field manual 3-04.302, has the below, with my reading having armament included in empty weight. Ammo is added to basic weight or operating weight to give gross weight.  

https://rdl.train.army.mil/catalog-ws/view/100.ATSC/124A2C90-72CD-4B05-AB8B-ABC8718F9760-1274574464617/3-04.203/chap2.htm

WEIGHT DEFINITIONS
EMPTY WEIGHT
2-2.        Empty weight is used for design purposes and usually does not affect service activities. Empty weight includes aircraft structure weight plus–communications, control, electrical, hydraulic, instrument, and power plant systems; furnishings; anti-icing equipment; auxiliary power plant; flotation landing gear; and armament, anchor, and towing provisions.
BASIC WEIGHT
2-3.        Basic weight of an aircraft is weight including all hydraulic and oil systems full, trapped and unusable fuel, and all fixed equipment. From basic weight total, it is only necessary to add crew, fuel, cargo, and ammunition (if carried) when determining the aircraft's gross weight. Basic weight varies with structural modifications and changes of fixed aircraft equipment.
OPERATING WEIGHT
2-4.        Operating weight includes basic weight plus aircrew, aircrew's baggage, emergency gear, and other equipment required. Operating weight does not include weight of fuel, ammunition, bombs, cargo, or external auxiliary fuel tanks if such tanks are to be disposed of during flight.
GROSS WEIGHT
2-5.        Gross weight is total weight of an aircraft and its contents.

xxxxxx

Modern US air force looks similar, with the term basic weight being used, which include guns but not ammo. 

http://www.tinker.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-061214-031.pdf

See figure 2-1 in section 2-2, and other parts

"guns" is part of formula to get to basic weight . "ammunition" is part of payload.

from the appendix "Examples of items in basic weight may be guns, unusable fuel, engine oil, ballast, survival kits, oxygen, and internal and external equipment not disposed of during flight."

[KJ_Lesnick]

Sandiego89,

Okay, so OEW includes what I think of as an empty plane: It's basically has normal equipment aboard, nothing disposable.  Ammunition though is not counted, just like the bombs and missiles, and stuff.

That being said

• During WW2: Did Empty Weight, Basic Weight, and Operational Empty weight mean the same thing?
  
• When one looks through stats on pages like Joe Baugher and Wikipedia: Does empty mean operational empty or pure empty?
  

[rickshaw]

Sandiego89,

Okay, so OEW includes what I think of as an empty plane: It's basically has normal equipment aboard, nothing disposable.  Ammunition though is not counted, just like the bombs and missiles, and stuff.

That being said

• During WW2: Did Empty Weight, Basic Weight, and Operational Empty weight mean the same thing?
  
• When one looks through stats on pages like Joe Baugher and Wikipedia: Does empty mean operational empty or pure empty?
  

Why not email Joe Baugher and ask, Kendra/Robyn?   

[kitnut617]

Sandiego89,

Okay, so OEW includes what I think of as an empty plane: It's basically has normal equipment aboard, nothing disposable.  Ammunition though is not counted, just like the bombs and missiles, and stuff.

That being said

• During WW2: Did Empty Weight, Basic Weight, and Operational Empty weight mean the same thing?
  
• When one looks through stats on pages like Joe Baugher and Wikipedia: Does empty mean operational empty or pure empty?
  

Why not email Joe Baugher and ask, Kendra/Robyn?   

He already knows about Kendra/Robyn   

[rickshaw]

Sandiego89,

Okay, so OEW includes what I think of as an empty plane: It's basically has normal equipment aboard, nothing disposable.  Ammunition though is not counted, just like the bombs and missiles, and stuff.

That being said

• During WW2: Did Empty Weight, Basic Weight, and Operational Empty weight mean the same thing?
  
• When one looks through stats on pages like Joe Baugher and Wikipedia: Does empty mean operational empty or pure empty?
  

Why not email Joe Baugher and ask, Kendra/Robyn?   

He already knows about Kendra/Robyn   

Why am I not surprised by that? 

[KJ_Lesnick]

Do missiles and external stores count as gross weight?

[sandiego89]

Do missiles and external stores count as gross weight?

Gross weight is how much an aircraft weighs at a particular time.  So if the aircraft is loaded with missiles and external stores, yes that is part of the gross weight. Think of it as total weight.   

https://www.ivao.aero/training/documentation/books/SPP_aircraft_weight.pdf

"The aircraft gross weight is the total aircraft weight at any moment during the flight or ground operation"