CVA-01

[Zen]

Strange VG thing? Probably one of Vickers submissions to OR346. A number where tailless and did look a little odd.
CVA-01 if laid down in say '66 is'nt going to replace any CV until at the very least '72 and probably much later.
I don't see them giving up Ark and Eagle together, but they will likely shift Hermes to commando duties if the money is there for conversion and dump Victorious as per real life.
The most likely scenario is that once Ark Royal has been Phantomised, Eagle will be taken in hand for the much more minor upgrade to operate the type (Eagle being in much better state and more extensively modernised earlier on trialed F4s).

Tornado is....well its complicated as I've said earlier on. It would'nt be Tornado as we know it, if it happens at all. Early F18s give nothing, the F4s are better platforms for BVR, and either the Buccaneer or a Naval VG machine is a better Strike/Attack type than the F18.
So purchase of F18s is likely to be late if at all once the F4 airframe hours get too high. That assuming the RN is'nt just buying low hours F4s from the US, as the longer catapults and angled deck remove the need for the F4K.
What is a serious possibility is a Euro-Hornet, an F18 with European collaborative systems inside, which kills off both Rafale and Typhoon.

[Thorvic]

Ark Royal wouldn't have been phantomised if CVA-01 was built, Eagle would have had the minor refit to allow Tooms and Victorious would carry on with the Sea Vixen and Buccs. Hermes was earmarked as Commando carrier as she was always too small to operate the larger jets in suitable numbers (i have read that with the carrier cancellation, Hermes may have been adapted to an AEW carrier, so possibly more ASW/AEW carrier without fast jet wing).

Ark Royal was rated as B class carrier compared with the A class Eagle, Hermes and Victorious, she was in a poor state and not deemed suitable for the A class upgrade. Phantomising her was political move to keep the name and the dockyeard busy, rather than the Navy happy as never got the full A classs equipment.

[Zen]

Now do remind me when is the decision taken to 'phantomise' Ark Royal?
Because the RN viewed her as in poor state by 1963 and wanted her replaced.

Now its clear building CVA-01 will take so much of the available capacity for this sort of ship that little will be left for renovating Ark Royal.

[Nick]

I suspect this has been asked here before but having just read the final part of Phoenix Squadron, I'm wondering if the RN could have gained full size carriers post 1982.

Scenario goes that the government see the mistake in going to Harrier carriers and order an updated CVA-01 design but keeps HMS Invincible and Hermes till then. What did become HMS Illustrious and Ark Royal are completed but sold to the Australian Navy and another, maybe the Spanish or Dutch?

[Hobbes]

The Dutch navy would be an unlikely candidate. By 1980, the Karel Doorman had been gone for a decade. For the role the RNLN had in those years (ASW and Atlantic convoy escorts), a carrier would have been overkill.

[fallenphoenix]

ahh but the I-class were originally anti-sub cruisers to offload all the ASW assets from the CVA-01 leaving her with a dedicated strike group

and Nick, I'm way ahead of ya  :



Craig

[Hobbes]

  tempted to do Airfix' new Invincible kit like that

[Thorvic]

Now do remind me when is the decision taken to 'phantomise' Ark Royal?
Because the RN viewed her as in poor state by 1963 and wanted her replaced.

Now its clear building CVA-01 will take so much of the available capacity for this sort of ship that little will be left for renovating Ark Royal.

All part of yhe cancellation of CVA-01 decision, as the Ark Refit would keep Plymouth dockyard voters quiet for a few years. Only did changes to allow her to operate toomsm rathe than a full rebuild to A class as per the other three carriers.

The war built hulls suffered from poor condition due to rushed, poor work on basic hull during wartime and lay up post war unfinished till future decided.

Sort of makes you wonder how the 1952 carriers would have ended up by the mid 60's when due in service and how that would have decided the airgroup, as des[it tooms and 1154 the VG Interceptor/Strike aircraft seemd to evolve to Type 583 and then transfer over to AFVG untill the Carrier Groups were axed.

G

[uk 75]

Archibald

I forgot to mention that initially when the Anglo-French variable geometry
jet (AFVG) was first proposed, the French and British Navies were listed as customers.  The carrier cancellation decision in 1966 scotched this.

Had it not been for politics (and Phantoms!) the AFVG or perhaps a Mirage G version could have been a nice aircraft for the CVA 01. The other UK/French candidate was the Mirage III vstol proposed at one point by BAC.

I think for modelling purposes the illustrations published in 1966 of CVA01 remain the closest thing to the "real" ship.  The Ark Royal airgroup from 1970 was proposed.

[philp]

I have been thinking about the What-If Vikings I hope to build based on J.P.'s drawings and came across the one marked up for Operation Corporate operating from CVA-01 and it got me wondering what the rest of the air wing would have been in 1982?  I have caught up on a few old threads including this one so resurrecting it.

Since we know Phantoms and Buccs were still in service in 1982 would it make sense to have them still in Naval markings on board the QE?

https://photos.fife.usercontent.google.com/pw/AP1GczNq-sJG9wjLn2sFZfaeC3A57hEBX8qh1gtYAJBwlQyLGzfCVN93hPBAAkVprdV8M-vZymLIhZ1aGoZ-hwwjdgXjVVJ0AaA=w800-h379-s-no-gm?authuser=0

[Thorvic]

I have been thinking about the What-If Vikings I hope to build based on J.P.'s drawings and came across the one marked up for Operation Corporate operating from CVA-01 and it got me wondering what the rest of the air wing would have been in 1982?  I have caught up on a few old threads including this one so resurrecting it.

Since we know Phantoms and Buccs were still in service in 1982 would it make sense to have them still in Naval markings on board the QE?

https://photos.fife.usercontent.google.com/pw/AP1GczNq-sJG9wjLn2sFZfaeC3A57hEBX8qh1gtYAJBwlQyLGzfCVN93hPBAAkVprdV8M-vZymLIhZ1aGoZ-hwwjdgXjVVJ0AaA=w800-h379-s-no-gm?authuser=0

The Buccaneers would probably be the same with their underwing codes and tail markings overpainted and their squadron code in black. Phantoms would possibly have switched to ADV scheme similar to 809  Shars in 82. AEW might be the Puffin but would likelt be E2B Hawkeye. Seakings would provide the ASW and possibly a  Wessex hu5 SAR.

The curve ball would be if CVA-01 had been built and entered service circea 1975, its probable that CVA-02 would just have entered service, then the Royal Navy would still have a seat at the table for Aircraft requirements, so its possible we may have seen a mixed airgroup of Buccaneers for deep strike, Sea Jaguar in light strike/fighter mode and Phantoms in purely CAP/Air Defence.
The RN had a stake in the AFVG, so with them still in the game we may see what we got as Tornado with a naval variant in genuine MRCA role replacing both Buccaneer and Tornado, or we may have kept close to the USN and opted for F/A-18 in similar role although circa 1982 those would more likely be in the early delivery and flight test & evaluation only.

[Weaver]

The other debateable point, of course, is whether, if CVA-01 and CVA-02 had been in service in 1982, Argentina would ever have dared to invade the Falklands at all. Can you imagine what a Phantom CAP stationed east of the islands would have done to the Argentine strike packages?   I'm sure they could...

Building two large "unaffordable" aircraft carriers might have prevented a war, saved hundreds of lives (on both sides), and you know what? They'd never have got any credit for it, because the war was so out of left field that if it hadn't actually happened, nobody would have believed it. If you went back in time and described the Falklands War to the average Brit in 1981, they'd have told you it was the script for the daftest, most ridiculous Hollywood movie ever.