T-64/122?

[Phnx28]

Before going whole-hog into my AH-1RO Dracula project, I'm eyeing a simple minitank or suchlike kitbash for a subject I'm interested in as a simple refresher project for my modeling skills. My subject is the Object 430U, a Kharkov Design Bureau study that led directly to the Object 432/434/T64 series; the main difference being in armament, the 430U packing a 122mm L/42 D25TA gun as used on the JS series and T-10 while the 432 used the 115mm D68, an autoloading derivative of the T-62's U5TS smoothbore gun.
The whiff here is that, supposing Kruschev never succeeds in displacing Molotov and Malenkov from their positions in the post-Stalin triumvirate, he can't push his personal missile obsession on Soviet military procurement as hard as in OTL; hence the various smoothbore tank gun/launcher projects either never emerge or remain merely experimental. Given known Soviet developmental pressures to replace the JS series and later the T-10s in independent tank units, as well as to ease Western pressure with the impending L7 105mm and L11 120mm tank guns, I suspect TTL might actually see the Object 430U ordered "as was" to supplement the existing T-54/55 series as a 122mm rifled gun MBT; a "T-64/122" to borrow World War II parlance for clarity's sake.
On a basic level I'm thinking of bashing the turret from a T-10A onto a T-64A hull, since IIRC the 430 series hull was essentially as for the service T-64 apart from the inevitable addition of V-shaped splash board. This also easily lends itself to a second "Object 430UM" or "T-64/122M" bash, this time with the T-64B hull and T-10M turret with its 122mm L/46 M-62T2 gun; a general upgrade for better tank-killing capability and possibly a T-80 alternate in the bargain later on. Another option if the above paths require too much suspension of disbelief would be a barrel-bash with the appropriate 122mm gun into a stock T-64 turret for either model, though this would be a touchier operation and require more fluff to explain away a 122mm autoloader. Any ideas as to minitank or beginners' kits I could use for this project? I've been prowling around the various hobby sites but most kits I've found are either too heavily pre-painted on the low end or beyond my current league on the high end.

[Radish]

Trumpeter do a much improved JSIII in 1/72nd.
Do Italeri too? Or Dragon??

[ysi_maniac]

Not Italeri or Dragon, but RODEN does

[Phnx28]

Italrei do a T-62 in 1/72; how about aT-10/IS-3 turret on a modified turret ring? Airfix did a JS-3 at some point in the past.
Also the Russians prefered the larger calibre kinetic energy AT rounds as they took less training then the HEAT ones due to their ballistic characteristics.IIRC.
Don't know about a T-64 kit other than one of the Russian ones.

To all, thanks for the 1/72 since that seems to be the consensus recommendation thus far. Is it not possible to bash minitanks? I can hack 1/72 but it's been over a decade since I actually modeled anything, the upcoming Dracula of mine being a Whiskey Cobra kit I still have from back then that I want to get up eventually, and starting simple would allow me fewer assembly hassles and more time to practice the vital art of whiff painting. Recalling the Obj.430U turret off the top of my head, a JSIII one might resemble the one photo I've seen of the 430's more than the T-10's would, but IIRC no JSIII or JSIIIM got the D25TA L/42 variant gun that was specified in the Obj.430U study; just the older D25T L/42 without the bore evacuator. Thus, going the JSIII route would involve both a barrel and turret bash, especially if I wanted to do later T-64/122s with the M-62T2 L/46 gun the T-10M had.
Thanks Geoff but sorry, this one is T-64 or bust. :ar: KMDB's founder Alexander Morozov would be rolling in his grave @ a T-62 bash masquerading as one of his babies ; that was a Nizhniy Tagil/Uralvagonzavod project under Leonid Kartsev, whom Morozov considered a sworn rival. To make a long story of internecine Communist politics and egoism short, the Object 430 and onward projects were Morozov's homecoming (to Kharkov from Nizhniy Tagil/Tankograd) attempt to move beyond the T-54 to a completely new tank, one as revolutionary for the 1960s as the T-34 was for the 1940s. Undeterred by the original Object 430's 1958 loss to the Kartsev-designed T-55 because of price/value concerns (better powerplant and suspension vs. same gun and protection), Morozov began the Object 430U study I outlined above, which later became the T-64 we know after getting first 115mm and then 125mm autoloading smoothbores. Since the T-64's price more than equalled its capabilities, Kartsev designed the cheaper T-62 and T-72 in parallel around those same guns, respectively. I don't definitively know what happens to these in TTL yet, but I'm leaning towards substituting (even!) more T-55 production and upgrades plus a wider market for the Romanian variants. (TTL's Iraqi Republican Guard thus ends up largely TR-77 and TR-85 equipped... )
Point noted about the larger guns for the Russian conscripts, but the idea here is to delay the onset of smoothbore guns long enough that the invention of slip-ring sabots renders them unnecessary, since slip rings enable finned APDS and HEAT rounds to function even in rifled guns (the French AMX-30's ball-bearing-sheathed rounds offer an early example of this). Thus, tanks in TTL are arguably less advanced at extreme-tank-duelling yes, but equally better at general-purpose infantry support and other combined-arms work due to the greater range of ammunition they can fire. (especially canister and HESH rounds...)

[Phnx28]

No prob. ^_^ Happy to enlighten about the intricacies of the period; it's amazing to learn how monolithic the various modern oligarchies weren't once one digs deep enough, despite what both their propaganda bureaus and our alarmists wanted others to think.
I'll start this project micro-scale now since I've found a good 1/87 T-64 minitank from Trident, but alas no corresponding T-10 and without good pics of either I can't assess bashability at the moment. The 1/72 or larger kit will be my crowning-glory piece in this series once I get the final T-64/122 design narrowed down. Digging around on the 'Net, I've found Navwar has both T-10M and an unspecified regular T-64 (probably A) in 1/300, but I don't know how bashable these are yet. GHQ's 1/285 T-64 is my ideal choice at present, since the 125mm barrel is a separate component and I find the idea of a simple 122mm barrel bash into the T-64 turret actually quite appealing now; it leaves a gunless driver-training or post-fall dimilitarized T-10 around in the bargain with minimal waste. Does GHQ or someone else make a compatible 1/285 T-10?
Another, related project in this vein concerns alt-BMPs to accompany the alt-T64. I'm looking at doing both of two possibilities: one BMP-1/23 to the original 23mm autocannon/AT-3 Sagger specification, drawn up before concerns about antitank power forced addition of the 73mm recoilless smoothbore; a probable Bulgarian BMP-23 turret/Russian BMP-1 hull bash. And after that one actual "BMP-76," the creature we thought OTL's BMP was before the 1973 October War showed otherwise; done by bashing an AT-3 Sagger mount onto a PT-76B turret, and that in turn onto a BMP-1 or -2 hull. (depends on which turret ring fits best, probably BMP-2 IIRC) IDK about the BMP-1/23 yet, but GHQ looks best for the BMP-76 because they have all the requisite minis to start with. All these kits are just my first projects in a whole AU series I'm thinking up. (I'll post the detailed scenario in another thread later; suffice it to say it involves a less-advanced but otherwise far stronger USSR earlier-on, for reference about OTL-1990 equivalent by TTL-1970.)

[TsrJoe]

i have somewhere in the pile a 1/87? scale T.10 i picked up many years ago possibly by Trident or Roco? ill see if i can find it and check as im currently clearing out my old model/scrapbox piles!

cheers, Joe

[grayman]

This has got me thinking...what if the Russians, in their fear of the Imperialists fielding of the Sheridan and M60A2 "Starship" decided to adapt one of their proven 152-mm barrels, combined with a wire-guided or beam-riding missile onto a T-64?

In addition, noting that the Sheridan could be deployed by parachute, the Russians decided to modify the BMD platform for the same missile/gun complex...

Or, to go a step further, developed a SP hull based on the T-64 with a 152-mm gun/missile system (i.e., a modernised Su-152 but based on a T-64 hull). Such a vehicle, placed in reserves for Cat 1 Divisions at the start of the eighties was spied by western intel while equipped with ERA...

Which reminds me, I *must* dig out my Skif T-64 one day...

[Phnx28]

This has got me thinking...what if the Russians, in their fear of the Imperialists fielding of the Sheridan and M60A2 "Starship" decided to adapt one of their proven 152-mm barrels, combined with a wire-guided or beam-riding missile onto a T-64?

In addition, noting that the Sheridan could be deployed by parachute, the Russians decided to modify the BMD platform for the same missile/gun complex...

Or, to go a step further, developed a SP hull based on the T-64 with a 152-mm gun/missile system (i.e., a modernised Su-152 but based on a T-64 hull). Such a vehicle, placed in reserves for Cat 1 Divisions at the start of the eighties was spied by western intel while equipped with ERA...

Which reminds me, I *must* dig out my Skif T-64 one day...

I think the 152mm update you're talking about is what's in the cards for OTLs T-95, assuming that ever leaves the testing grounds in todays Russia... T-64 works for this, definitely, but the BMD would be a long shot unless a short-barrel version were used for it and/or the MBT mod. As for a modernized SU-152 (T-64 based) or ASU-152 (BMD derived), inspired as well but in need of care to avoid too much overlap with the SO-152 Akatsiya SPA, unless they replace those of course.
Good luck with the Skif kit as I've heard it needs major aftermarket corrections, notably a whole new new turret and tracks. I might give it my 122mm treatment one day when I can handle that much, but it's minis for now on this project. I'm hitting my local hobby shop today to finally ask around for any T-10s and T-64s they have in my scale/price range, so results may not be long in coming at all on my end.