Vickers 571 (single-engine version)...

[Archibald]

You're right... problems to come! In B.S.P, there's a Sea Vixen project which consist of adding a  spectre rocket motor to boost performances. Well, those rockets engines aparently would have caused severe acoustic problems... and type 582 was quite similar to the Sea Vixen in its overal conception. so yes, maybe the 8 engines would have caused some problems (what about fuel consumption ?? )
Vickers without tail where the 581, which were Wallis' Swallow derivatives with an "ordinary" fuselage. FBW needed for those ones, that's sure! But after all, the Arrow had this sytem in 1958 no?
That's could be a good whatif... Analog FBW spread on the 60's, saving planes like the XB-70. this is another story  

[Zen]

Somewhat along the lines of what I was thinking!

Take out the lift jets and the complicated aft exhaust arrangement - keep the variable incidence and settle for CTOL. It is somewhat bigger than the Crusader, but would have better range and room for two crew and additional systems.

Indeed, a kind of Brit superCrusader. The only problem with the machine is its length at 68.5ft and the paltry nosefold brings it at best down to 58ft! Only the deck edge lift on Hermes is 60ft long, so it simply would'nt fit down the lifts.

But I think the essential principal is correct, a large single engine, 2D inlets, variable incidence wing, blown surfaces leading and trailing edge, two seats, and a 30 inch radar dish. I even like the maingear, which would be good for carrier ops.

So if theres an answer its a scaled P1152 type aircraft.

The other machine I keep comming back to is the P1125, replace the front end with something closer to the shorter P1103 and you've got a 63ft long aircaft that should fold below 55ft in length. Just enough for the lifts.
Fit it with the fully blown wing of the final P1121 design and its twin Avon133's should be enough for fighter/strike missions.

Archie, one version of the P39 had twin RB153's instead for forward propulsion and the lift jets certainly guarentee STOL.

[Archibald]

It could be interesting comparing British and French carriers.
On one hand, you have the 260m long but only 32000 tons Foch and Clemenceau; on the other hand, I heard that the Ark Royal and Eagle were 49 000 tons...but they were not bigger (what length?)  so why so much weight?
I would say that I'am a bit confused about british carriers!
Need catapult, lift and dimensions comparisons

I also think about the P.1123 (last derivative of the P.1121)...

If I understand well, we need an aircraft no longer than 17m (55ft) because of the lift in the carriers (among others considerations). After that, we must fold it!

[Zen]

Well now. Your comparing the wrong carriers IMO.
The Audacious class (Ark Royal and Eagle) had two hanger decks, plenty of armour and where much modified from their 1942 orrigin.
They where fatter than the French Clemenceau class (which where a little unstable until they bulges).

Better to look at Victorious and Hermes, of the two Hermes is the most 'modern'.

I'd need to check the lift dimensions but I think the larger CV's each had a lift of 56ft in length.
Hermes is the only one with deck edge lift of smething between 58 to 60ft in length.
The narrowest lift is I think 35ft, but I forget which ship.

also think about the P.1123 (last derivative of the P.1121)...

Hmmm thats 70ft long, but I suppose you could fold the whole nose and cockpit section!

RN preference is for a folded length of 52ft and a folded width of 22ft or less.

[elmayerle]

That's why I would reject the P.1129, as the RAF did... we NEED the Harrier
Aaaaaaargh, Zen, if the RAF buy the P.1129 AND the Type 571, once again no Harrier... or maybe a French Harrier ? Wibault team with Breguet, they won against the Mirage IIIV (because their concept is so much more practical) and this gave us a STOL/ VTOL Breguet fighter, to escort the Br.941 transport

According to John Fozzard, Hawker-Siddeley had had fruitful formative discussions on a multi-national Harrier team with at least Breguet in France and Northrop in the US.

[Archibald]

I agree with both point! So I let you imagine how the Mirage IIIV would have been a nightmare onboard of a carrier
I don't know for northrop, but concerning Breguet, the 1110-1116 series have some similarities with the Harrier.
The Br.1110A Apterion is strinkingly similar to a Harrier, it date back from 1957.

[elmayerle]

Up until they gave it, at the USMC's request, to McDD in 1969, Northrop had the US license for the P.1127 and derivatives, so joining such a teaming would not have been difficult.  I understand it was the only vstol program their chief engineer considered worth partaking in.

[Zen]

Lets list them. Realistic options for the RN and RAF.

Native solutions:- Fixed wing.

Hawkers P1103/P1121/P1123 variants. The last P1121 offering being 1960. This would have to merge the short front end of the P1103 (but looking like the late P1121 twin seater) with the podded maingear of the P1123.

Hawkers P1125 with a shorter front end like the P1103 (again a twin seater like the later P1121). This being circa 1957.

Hawkers P1152 scaled to fit the lifts in the folded condition, this being acceptable since AW406 was less demanding than OR346. 1961

Vickers Type 571 - single engine 1957.
Vickers Type 571 - scaled twin, this either the single engine machine with two smaller engines or a directly scaled down twin.

Vickers Type 582. 1960

Folland SuperGnat MkV 1960.

Some variant of the DeHaviland GOR339 machine.

Vickers Supermarine Scimitar development.

VG types possible

Vickers Type 583 (small twin engines) 1960 and 1964.
Vickers Type 584/585 (single large engine) 1961-62
Vickers Type 589/590 (twin Avon or Spey)
Folland Fo147 (VG machine derived from Gnat MkV)

Foreign solutions:-
Vought/Shorts F8 Crusader with Spey engine.
Dassault F1, F2 and F3 family.
Others?

It would look like Hawkers are best placed to provide such an affordable solution, either the P1121 or P1125 variants would gain a lot from the flight of the P1121 prototype had it been completed. This may not kill of hopes of the P1127 Kestrel (later Harrier) as design staff would be freed up for that task later on, especialy if say Brough was given the wing work and AWA the tail, DH could take the weapons system and Avro other tasks to spread the work around HSA.
The P1152 scaled down would be a more naturaly destributed task in the HSA, and should not take away staff from the Kestrel, but it needs to be offered by 1963 at the latest IMO.

The alternative is the more risky VG machines from Vickers.

[Archibald]

Ok, maybe more american or French naval fighters? Before buying the Crusader, Aeronavale studied french-made solutions
- Mirage V has nothing common with the simplified Mirage III we know today. It was a bigger Mirage III (20% bigger) with a 9 ton thrust engine (Super Atar, easy to change for a Spey!) and a TAIL.
- Breguet 1120 Sirocco. Very interesting project I already mentionned it various times (SORRY!!). A Mirage F1 look-alike, but 10 years before!
I always though this plane could have been developed in the same way as the Jaguar (Br.1210!) starting in 1958.
- Mirage IVC (a scaled-down Mirage IV). It was clearly a multirole fighter, not only an interceptor like the two others. Needless to say, it was a heavy machine with a delta wing, so it needed BIG carriers.

amaericans contenders could have been the Super Tiger and Skylancer, or even the bigger XF-12F Lion from 1956 (this led to a real whatiff : Phantoms )  

[Zen]

Hmmmmm.....could there not have been a Anglo-French tie up here? Between Breuget and Hawkers....

After all Breuget's ideas on VTOL seem not a million miles away from Hawkers, and we know that Sir Cam thought there was a market for a single engined fighter along the lines of the a supersonic Hunter replacement like the P1121, could not a bit of cooperation have happened with the Br1120 Siroco?

One might imagine a collaboration on these projects, and joint proposals from them.
A Kestral/Br1110 type for Combat Air Support, a rival for the Etendard order perhaps?
And a Br1120 type for a fighter/attack machine. Offered to the RN, RAF, AdA and MN?
The latter being ten years earlier than the F1 (would that make it 1956?) would certainly interest Hawkers as a Hunter successor.

Both Hawkers and Breuget where less than favoured by their respective governments it would seem, clearly BAC and Dassault had more support.

[Archibald]

Just love this thread
Breguet VTOL are clearly in the 1110-1116 serie. Here's the whole list... http://www.aiaa.org/tc/vstol/unbuilt/index.htm
The French navy ordered 71 Etendard IV in 1959. didn't the RN bought 75 scimitars or so? this gave an order for 140 CAS VSTOL strike/fighters.

Can't remember exactly the dates for the Br.1120, but it was between 1956 and 1958. And GB had much better engines than the sole Atar 9K available in France...so the Breguet could have become a world beater.
1422 Mirage III were sold, and 700 F1. just imagine that a land-based Breguet replace both...add to that the AdA, RAF and Sea Vixen replacement for the RN...

Hawker Sirocco sounds great ! Or maybe Cyclone, because it's the same word in English and French... like Concorde and Jaguar  

[Archibald]

Ok, I prefer resurecting this thread than launch another one...

Here's a small batch of alternatives solutions for both the RAF and RN
- Saro SR-177
- Hawker P.1121
- Blackburn P.146
- Lockheed Lancer (a naval version with raised cockpit was drawn)
- Mirage F1E
- Mirage G
- Mirage F2
- Viggen

But there's plenty others!!!!!!!