A Question (or 2) For The Shippies

[Geoff]

I am in the process of building a Revell D 1/720th Blucher as an anti-aircraft cruiser form the 1950's or 60's.
I intend to put a SAM system on the aft deck along with it's director, and a heli-deck on the fantail. Along with sea and air seach radars on the fore mast. The plan is to leave the main armarment forward, with a radar director, but should I leave the visual range-finders fitted or should I beach them?
The other question is would the AAA as fitted still be appropriate in the 1950s if upgraded with radar directors, or should I replace them with a more modern system?
Any advice or comments welcome thanks.

[RLBH]

The Rheinmetall 20mm cannon is a pretty decent gun, albeit with much the same limitations as the Oerlikon, so it could be kept for the same sort of things. The 37mm L83 gun was, frankly, outdated even in WW2, being semi-automatic (!). Using the later M42 or M43 versions would be an improvement, but not that great. Might as well ditch them in favour of the 40mm Bofors. The 105mm has pretty decent ballistic properties, and you can always use handwavium to explain that these ones are automatic, maybe about 30 rounds per minute.

I'd be tempted to hang on to visual rangefinders, purely because they're a useful backup to the radar rangefinder. At this date, I expect that the radar wasn't reliable enough to ditch optics altogether, and German optics were pretty darned good.

What species of SAM are you using?

[Geoff]

Hi thats pretty much what I was thinking about the AAA and the visual range finders.
The SAM will be a sort of Talos type system I think. I had thought of a Sea Slug as that was based on German work but the idea of building the launcher gives me the shivers. I supose I could take a 1/600th one of the Airfix COunty class but that does not look like the real thing either.
Thanks for your help.

[GeorgeC]

Most nations had migrated to larger calibres by the 50s, with the adoption of the 57mm in European and the 3" in the US Navies, to take advantage of proximity fusing with radar direction.  If you look at the USN's post-war upgrades to WW2 ships  quad Bofors are usually replaced by twin 3".  You will certainly need a reliable back-up weapon to a 1st generation SAM.

The German had developed a 5.5cm for this purpose:
German 5.5cm

I belive this weapon influenced the Soviets, who adapted it to a standard calibre and produced both the S60 land-based AA gun these naval 'cousins'.
Russian 57mm
Multiple Russian 57mm
The fearsome 4-barreller from the Skkorys and the Kildins would look good!  

If you want to upgrade the 105s, what about some of these?
FlaK40 128mm Zwilling

[Geoff]

Mmmmm so 5.5 Flakvierling for close-in defense (1/400th Flakvierlings on a 1/720th model) and Flak-40s in twin mounts, all radar directed. With the main armarment radar directed with the visual RFs as a backup for NGF missions, coupled with a "Terrier/Talos/Sea Slug" hybrid SAM or perhaps I bite the bullet and look at the Soviet SAN-2? system.

We have a plan ( A cunning plan)!.

Thanks  

[Geoff]

Depending on the scenario I supose I should also add a shed load of 20/25mm for the last ditch.

I was reading the Squadron book about USN DDs and it said that - "when the Oerlikons opened up that was the time to find safe cover!"  

[RLBH]

Might like to use 30mm, as the Germans planned to replace their 20mm with that.

[Geoff]

Well I have built the model and put the air search radar on the aft mast, it was sort of inspired by the County Class destroyers and Leander air defence frigates. However the aft mast was raised above the forward superstructure which seemed logical; but it now looks far too high. Actually it just looks out of scale if that makes sense.

Not sure if I should relocate the antenna to the fwd superstructure or make the mast shorter, but that would irradiate 1/2 the crew and give a big blind spot directly ahead. Mmmmmm    

i talk nicely to number one daughter to see if she will show me how to post a pic as I am a complete Ludite with these machines.  

[Joe C-P]

Is this a NATO vessel or an extended WW2 version? Each would result in different outfits.

JoeP

[Geoff]

Is this a NATO vessel or an extended WW2 version? Each would result in different outfits.

JoeP

Extended WW2/Fatherland build.

So it is intended to show the ship as she was in the late 50's - early 60's.

[Joe C-P]

In any case, 20mms would have been out by then - too small and short-ranged.
If the Fatherland had survived, it would have had to not fight either the Soviets or the western allies. If Hitler and his cohort had been smart (fortunately not!) he would have come to an accommodation with the west, left Mussolini to his own stupidity, and fought only the Soviets, and then just enough to take the oil-rich lands in the south, leaving the remaining Soviet Union beaten and bloodied enough to reduce their threat.

So you have a Nazi navy similar to the Z plan - a few big ships for show, their escorts, and a large sub fleet.

The Allies don't receive all of the benefit those Nazi missile engineers, but then neither do the Soviets. A different Cold War erupts, with Jews and other such "undesirables" escape occupied Europe and Germany. Nazi scientific development is stunted, while Britain and France are relatively unscathed. Japan still runs through the Pacific, but now is facing a bigger portion of the RN and a good portion of the French Navy, so that gets over earlier.

The west has lots of carriers, and the experience to use them, so AA ships are essential to the Nazi fleet. They buy or steal the plans for advanced weapons. Perhaps the Soviets overthrow Stalin and become a vassal state to the Nazis? Or maybe the west starts supporting them as a thorn in the Nazis' side, via Vladivostok. The Soviets had many subs, too, so the Nazis will need an ASW force, especially in the Baltic and north Atlantic. But that's what the DDs are for, so the AA cruiser wouldn't have it.

So go with either early Soviet guns - 57mm and 130mm - or variations on their own weapons, such as the developed but never deployed 127mm dual purpose. The USN proved the viability of such a weapon in the Pacific, and their example of the move from the 40mm to the 3" AA gun would have been emulated.

Enough rambling. I'd say 57mm, 3" and/or 5", keeping the forward 8" guns. Primitive antennas, similar to USN and RN WW2 models.

JoeP

[GeorgeC]

I was leafing through Conways All the World's Fighting Ship 1922-46 last night and spotted the Kriegsmarine's planned 1944 destroyer.

Z 1944

It was planned to be fitted with a turreted version of the 128mm as a dual-purpose mount, and 55mm and 30mm as AA.  

[Geoff]

Thanks, that all makes sense, and thats a good link. Did you see the Z-1945 as well?