Tiny Air Groups

[joesus]

Over on the Commie Carrier group build dept, they are happily discussing the many a/c that will decorate their many ships. We are falling behind in the arms race! I'm going to try carving and casting some carrier planes, starting with the CL-84 for ASW/AEW and the RN 1154. Any preferences over scale between 1/600 and 1/700? Who is building ships and would availability of these planes change the scale of your model? What subjects, if any should I be considering as followups, if these work out?

[TsrJoe]

id love to see some little 600 and 700 scale TSR.2's (now theres a surprise!) im sure theres more than a few of us out there likewise would take some off your hands!

happy (micro)modelling, cheers, joe

[Geoff_B]

I'm going to try carving and casting some carrier planes, starting with the CL-84 for ASW/AEW and the RN 1154. Any preferences over scale between 1/600 and 1/700? Who is building ships and would availability of these planes change the scale of your model? What subjects, if any should I be considering as followups, if these work out?

I would them in 1/600 but i have a feeling the others would prefer 1/700. The 1154's would be great, howabout doing the BAC 583 Cyclone as i've done it in 1/72 it would be nice to populate the decks of Carrieres like Eagle, Victorious and CVA-01, these would need to be in 1/600 however as i have already done the carriers. Sea Jaguars and SR177 would also be handy for for RN & commonwealth carriers.

For US stuff how about the GD VTOL design then we could do a SCS  or maybe even a CVV smaller US carriers.

It would be great if you can do these joe.

Cheers

Geoff B B)  

[Geoff_B]

1/300 Scale Aircraft

Hi TSRJOE

You can get a 1/300 scale TSR-2 in white metal as part of a wargaming minatures.

In fact Toad might just want to try some these for some of his larger scale projects.

Cheers

Geoff B B)  

[joesus]

I shoulda thought of the SR 177 myself, so that's #3, if the first two work out. The GD plane, if it looks suspiciously like a CL-84, is because it IS a stretched license built 84. All I've got on the BAC 583 is on pg. 116 of the Buttler fighter book, but that should do for 1/600.

[elmayerle]

I shoulda thought of the SR 177 myself, so that's #3, if the first two work out. The GD plane, if it looks suspiciously like a CL-84, is because it IS a stretched license built 84. All I've got on the BAC 583 is on pg. 116 of the Buttler fighter book, but that should do for 1/600.

Well, wasn't Canadair owned by GD at that time?  I seem to recall that ownership for a while.

[Ogwash]

Hi Joesus

The GD VTOL i was thinking of was the VTOL fighter which Deino posted i think, Nigel did some scale drawings of it, but not yet seen a built example (not sure if Nigel has tried building it yet).

I suppose Toad would want Sea Arrows but as he works in 1/350 scale they would be very different.

As you have the 1154, the SR177 and the BAC 583 that pretty much covers the FAA for the 60's 70's fighters, Buccanners are already available in 1/700 and are a complete pain to scratch build  in any case.

Later aircraft could be covered by the Hawker  VTOL projects along the lines of the "X-wing", but these might be a little difficult to build. Might look interesting with a Squadron of X-wings parked on a Invincible CVS.

Not sure what would replace the 583 in carrier service if it had gone ahead, perhaps the F-18E, or maybe a Rafale type as i expect the French would have replaced their F-8's with 583's in the 70's to operate off Foch & Clemenceau.

Using BSP-Fighters for the 583 is fine as thats what i used my 1/72 versions.

Cheers

GeoffB B)  

[elmayerle]

The only GD VTOL studies I'm aware of were based on using ejectors for vertical lift.  This approach didn't work with the XV-4A nor the XFV-12A, so I reckon it would've ended up a non-starter for GD, too.   I know it's reality intruding, but this is a physical reality that can't be changed.

Evan

[Geoff_B]

GD VTOL Fighter

Hi Evan

This is the one Deino found, using deflected thrust and lift engines similar to the Yak-141. I think it dates from the 70's when the USN seriously considered smaller lighter carriers to replace the Essex. I suppose the VTOL ones were for the Sea Control Ship which was eventually built in Spain as the Principe Des Austres.

This is one of the What-if Options to be considered, not only What-if the UK hadn't decoded to scrap its carrier force but to maintain it somehow, and thus the Air Groups, and if the the Carter reign smaller USN carriers were built as Essex replacements with less CVN's, also SCS acting as CVE's for convoy duty supported by the OHP class frigates.

The implications of smaller lighter yet capabale carrier aircraft instead of big & heavy could have had quite an impact on our Allied forces with the Old WWII era carriers being firstly equiped with newer carrier aircraft, then replaced by new construction carriers from either the VTOL designs (SCS, Invincible, Guissipi Garribaldi, adapted LPH's of the Guam class) and larger conventional carriers, CVA-01, CVV, Charles De Gaulle, CTOL SCS (longer & wider with an Angled deck).

Cheers

GeoffB B)  

[elmayerle]

Thanks, Geoff.  I'd forgotten they'd played with that configuration.  Of course, there's some interesting stuff Northrop looked at in the '70's that seems to have disappeared from view.  For that matter, if I ever get back to LA, I'm going to have to dig through the Northrop project files, now in the Western Museum of Flight, and see what, if anything, they did with the P.1127 concept since they had the US rights from 1961 to 1969.

BTW, one thought for smaller carriers would be the Northrop N-285 design which derived from the F-5 but had evolved specifically to serve as a carrier-based trainer and light fighter.  The only time I've ever seen the brochure for this one, I was in a position where I couldn't copy it.

[Nick]

1/300 Scale Aircraft

You can get a 1/300 scale TSR-2 in white metal as part of a wargaming minatures.

Whoa!!! Back up there a minute, pardner!!!
They're in Ilford, a short train ride away! Guess where I'm going next weekend!

Nick B)  

[Geoff_B]

They're in Ilford, a short train ride away! Guess where I'm going next weekend!

Glad you spotted that Nick!!!, as i think Toad might want some if he's feeling flush Tsrjoe might want the TSR-2 if he'd not already got one

Evan

BTW, one thought for smaller carriers would be the Northrop N-285 design which derived from the F-5 but had evolved specifically to serve as a carrier-based trainer and light fighter. The only time I've ever seen the brochure for this one, I was in a position where I couldn't copy it.

Yep those are sort of ideas we're thinking of the USN wnet for big heavy aircraft like the F-14 & F-18 because they had Big Super carriers to operate from, this left smaller navies with normal or smaller carriers with no altemnative except for the Sea Harrier/AV-8B. The thinking behind the group build is what happened if lighter stuff continued to be developed by the UK & the US, then things get much more interesting.

Unfortunatley UK designs dried up in the 70's with the axe hanging over the carriers so most of our non-VTOL aircraft date from 60's designs but it would be interesting to see what the US had lined up for the 70's as a A-4 and F-8 replacements.

Cheers

Geoff B B)  

[elmayerle]

As I remember, the N-285 was an early-sixties design, though it had plenty of room to evolve.  There are a number of Northrop designs that would make good "what-ifs", like the single-engined design that was offered along with the twin-engined one that became the YF-17.  There were some studies, too, of an advanced F-5F with larger engines & a larger wing (enough larger to add one more hardpoint per side) to get load factors down to those of the F-5A/B.

Now, from papers I remember seeing in AIAA professional journals back in eh 70's, Northrop was playing with some interesting proposals for light fighter aircraft but all that information suddenly stopped appearing, I've often wondered why.

[Captain Canada]

Damn straight, Thorvic ! Thanks for posting that link !  I'm in ! I'll have to sort out what I need first, as well as get the carrier. I'm hoping wifey gets me one for Christmas....

And Joe, do the Dynavert in 350 scale, wouldya !