Aichi Carrier Bombers of WWII

sequoiaranger · April 01, 2009, 09:17:18 AM

This is a thread for the D3A "Val", D4Y Suisei "Judy" (largely made by Aichi), and the B7A Ryusei "Grace". As always, included should be any weird or wonderful whif/derivatives thereof.

As you may know (or seen in my Gallery here), I have a "single-place" reece derivative ("Yamagumo") and a slightly-enlarged "Suisei-Kai" in the project lineup. I have a fondness for the "Judy" ever since making the LS kit in the late '60's that had a working bomb bay (later versions of the LS kit had a solid fuselage--never knew why the bomb-bay was dispensed with).

My current "problem" is HOW the rear defensive machine gun of the "Judy" is deployed.

That is, on the predecessor D3A, I have seen many pictures of the rear-seat man (hereafter known as "GIB"--guy-in-back) and the machine gun. The canopy STOPS just before the GIB, giving a clear field of fire rearward for him without trying to shoot over or around glass. On the D3A, the GIB's canopy panel AND the rearmost panel slide FORWARD up and over the GIB's head to free up the field of fire.

For the D4Y, there is an aerodynamic, extended "glass cave" beyond the GIB's position (arrow in pic points to it), and I have NEVER seen a picture of the machine gun deployed on a D4Y. As in the photo below (the radial Judy version), the GIB's canopy slides forward, but....what happens to the glass cave? It looks to me like it is fixed, but that seems unlikely since it would inhibit deployment of the rear machine gun and/or severely restrict its arc. I don't see it likely that it slides FORWARD like the D3A, because it seems too long and low to clear the GIB's head adequately. Again, I have seen NO pictures of the D4Y rear-gun position ready to fire.

The Ryusei is similar. Another Aichi pair of aircraft with somewhat similar canopy arrangement (but rarer for photos) is the Seiran/Nanzan. There is one in the Smithsonian, so maybe someone has checked out how THAT arrangement works. It's probably the same for the Judy/Grace.

Got hints? Got Pics? **HELP!**

Sauragnmon · April 01, 2009, 09:38:37 AM

The catch of the D4Y3 was if I recall it was a kamikaze aircraft in conversion for the most part anyways, to my recollection, I don't know if the glass might have been set up to move at that point.

As to how it might have moved, it might have been set up to roll on a track on the inside of the window so as to roll forward under the glass and open that section, while staying positioned along the aft canopy, perhaps set up akin to the way the Stuka or 110's aft covers opened. Maybe it split on the frame and went to either side for that matter.

sequoiaranger · April 01, 2009, 09:48:45 AM

>The catch of the D4Y3 was if I recall it was a kamikaze aircraft in conversion for the most part anyways, to my recollection, I don't know if the glass might have been set up to move at that point.<

I might agree on aircraft built in 1945, but the Suisei was operational at Midway, 1942 and later, as a replacement for the "Val", long before the advent of specialized (or stripped-down) Kamikaze aircraft.

>As to how it might have moved, it might have been set up to roll on a track on the inside of the window...<

If **I** were designing it, I would have the rear "glass cave" act like table extensions, that is, pull it forward a tad to "unlock", and then have it track down and under its former position, parallel to the surface. So if I was the GIB and had my MG out and ready to fire, looking aft, I would see a double curve---the curve of the rear fuselage and directly under it the curve of the glass cave. Seems logical, but I have NO PROOF of any such arrangement, or alternative arrangement. In photos, I see no "black line" that would indicate that the rear glass cave is a movable piece--it always SEEMS to be an integral part of the fuselage like the windscreen or the center section of the canopy.

Thanks for thinking of it, though!

jcf · April 01, 2009, 10:24:06 AM

From looking at photos of the rear cockpit of the M6A1in Japanese Submarine Aircraft by Januszewski it
appears that forward part covering the gun breech was slid forward under the gunners canopy and the
tapered rear glass does rotate down into the fuselage.

Based on looking at photos, I think it likely that the other Aichi aircraft in question used a similar system.

Jon

sequoiaranger · April 01, 2009, 10:30:52 AM

>it appears that forward part covering the gun breech was slid forward under the gunners canopy and the
tapered rear glass does rotate down into the fuselage.<

Thanks so much for the pic and research!

From the picture you provided, it does indeed look like the rear tapered section "rotates", but in the picture it seems like it is OUTSIDE the fuselage, not inside. It would make a lot more sense on the inside, of course, but that's not what the picture seems to show.

[EDIT]--Ahh! I see it now! Good work!

Sauragnmon · April 01, 2009, 12:55:21 PM

Craig, I know how early the D4Y came into service, but what I am saying, is the Y3, the one you were showing in the photo, was a Late war model - Y1 and Y2 were the more common service units, Y3 was later in the war when the 601-derived engine was not available, and they had to come up with a new engine. Most of the Y3's if I recall were converted to Kamikaze, but I could be wrong there. If that's the case, it's why you might not have been able to identify it.

sequoiaranger · April 01, 2009, 01:41:54 PM

You are certainly right about the picture I posted being a late-war "Kamikaze" D4Y3, but I had used it as the best photo I had of the rear canopy. Other photos I have of the inline model are kinda indistinct around the rear canopy. I have a picture of a D4Y3, about to crash into a carrier, that SEEMS to show a rear-seat gun sticking up THROUGH the rearmost canopy. It's not the antenna, and pointed in the "right" direction and angle. It's a nearly head-on shot, however, so one really can't make out what it is or how the canopy is situated.

But, I think I will go with the "rotational" glasswork in the style of the M6A, and incorporate that into my "Suisei-Kai" model when I get around to it.

sequoiaranger · April 01, 2009, 01:47:50 PM

The B7A Ryusei "Grace" model in 1/72 that Fujimi has had out for some twenty years is generally excellent in quality, but...the wingplan is all wrong. That is, the leading edge of the Ryusei is represented in the model as straight (90 degrees to the fuselage) when in actuality both the leading and trailing edges taper. "Eagle's Talon" did a vac-form of the Ryusei that had the correct wing, but had the drawback of being a vac-form (though an excellent one). Ideally, if you were going to make a good one, you would use the wings of the Vac-form and the rest of it from the Fujimi.

When I did my Ryusei, I only had the Fujimi kit, and built it OOB. Later, when I had the Eagle's Talon vac, I had thought someday to switch out wings, but never did, and now my vac has been sold.

Sauragnmon · April 01, 2009, 05:28:24 PM

Ah, the pain and humiliation, you sold it before you could get to fixin the wings on your Fujimi Heavenly Mountain!

The Grace is one of the birds I'd like to add eventually to my Japanese All Stars collection - Ki-61, 67, 84, 100, M6A, D4Y2, B7A, A7M, A6M, B5N, D3A - the last three simply for the sheer weight of work they did, and damage they caused early war.