USS Philadelphia

[Chris707]

For those who might be interested, I've posted a vintage 1892 article on the protected cruiser USS Philadelphia at:

http://www.dataviewbooks.com/philly.html

A real transition between the early armored vessels and predreadnoughts - she was around until the 1920s as receiving ship IX-24

Chris

[NARSES2]

Interesting Chris, I've always liked this period of ship design. The "protected" cruisers were an interesting breed even if in the end they quickly became passe.

[Joe C-P]

What "what-if" wars might the USN have fought in the mid-late-1800s with their new Steel Navy ships? Were any of the South American countries equipped with a comparable force, so that they might contest American hegemony in the Western Hemisphere?

[Chris707]

Although Maine is remembered for the Spanish-American War, at the time of her construction, Chile was apparently seen as a threat:

""The possibility of war with Chile caused much activity in the Navy Department, and the work which was actually done showed how quickly the ships we have can be put on a war fooling. As nearly all of them are simply cruisers, however, the occasion served to show that the battle-ships now in progress are needed, if we are to have war at all. These, with two or three torpedo cruisers, seem to be the vessels most required.
The Navy Department chartered the steamship Ohio with the view of titling her out as a floating machine-shop a very necessary adjunct to a fleet of modern war-ships. The building of a ship specially fitted for this purpose would seem to be desirable.

The armored cruiser Maine, at the New York Navy Yard, is now ready for her armor-plates. The side armor, 10 in. in thickness, is to come from the Bethlehem Iron Works, and the 8-in. plates for the turrets are in course of manufacture at the works at Carnegie, Phipps & Company, near Pittsburgh. The boilers of the Maine are now being put in place ;and the engines, which are all ready, will be in the vessel before long. "

[dragon]

What "what-if" wars might the USN have fought in the mid-late-1800s with their new Steel Navy ships? Were any of the South American countries equipped with a comparable force, so that they might contest American hegemony in the Western Hemisphere?

Peru and Chile were up to par technology-wise at that time period.  In fact they even built and designed their own ironclads, and had a war or two using them.  However using US Technology was also allowed.  If memory serves right, Monitor USS CATAWBA went south of the border to serve in the Peruvian Navy.  Ex-USS ONEOTA (in Peruvian Navy Service) had a battle against British built first Peruvian owned and then Chilean "acquired" Huascar Pre-Dreadnaught.  However I don't think those two countries had the industrial capacity to go up even against a US Navy during the post civil war reconstruction period.

[NARSES2]

What "what-if" wars might the USN have fought in the mid-late-1800s with their new Steel Navy ships? Were any of the South American countries equipped with a comparable force, so that they might contest American hegemony in the Western Hemisphere?

Not sure anyone could have challanged the USN outright. But it could have got into some "interesting" policing actions especially if it tried to dampen down some of the conflicts that were happening in S America at the time.

However suppose after the Civil War the US decided to become expansionist and looked towards S America ? Could be seen as a way of trying to unite a fractured country after the war ? This might have led to some interesting conflicts with perhaps some of the S American states suspending there differences and joining together if only temporarily ? Not saying the US would want to aquire territory but it might want to control it ?

[rickshaw]

What "what-if" wars might the USN have fought in the mid-late-1800s with their new Steel Navy ships? Were any of the South American countries equipped with a comparable force, so that they might contest American hegemony in the Western Hemisphere?

Not sure anyone could have challanged the USN outright. But it could have got into some "interesting" policing actions especially if it tried to dampen down some of the conflicts that were happening in S America at the time.

However suppose after the Civil War the US decided to become expansionist and looked towards S America ? Could be seen as a way of trying to unite a fractured country after the war ? This might have led to some interesting conflicts with perhaps some of the S American states suspending there differences and joining together if only temporarily ? Not saying the US would want to aquire territory but it might want to control it ?

The US did become expansionist.    However its direction was toward the west, not south.

[NARSES2]

What "what-if" wars might the USN have fought in the mid-late-1800s with their new Steel Navy ships? Were any of the South American countries equipped with a comparable force, so that they might contest American hegemony in the Western Hemisphere?

Not sure anyone could have challanged the USN outright. But it could have got into some "interesting" policing actions especially if it tried to dampen down some of the conflicts that were happening in S America at the time.

However suppose after the Civil War the US decided to become expansionist and looked towards S America ? Could be seen as a way of trying to unite a fractured country after the war ? This might have led to some interesting conflicts with perhaps some of the S American states suspending there differences and joining together if only temporarily ? Not saying the US would want to aquire territory but it might want to control it ?

The US did become expansionist.    However its direction was toward the west, not south.

Oops - Appreciate that Rickshaw. Should have been clearer and said " what if the US became expansionist towards S America as well as to the West".  It could of managed both I assume ? I have no real idea how much the expansion into the Western States cost the US ecconomy. I know any expansion into S America would have had a massive financial impact and I'm not sure this could have been absorbed by the then current US financial/political system ?

[rickshaw]

What "what-if" wars might the USN have fought in the mid-late-1800s with their new Steel Navy ships? Were any of the South American countries equipped with a comparable force, so that they might contest American hegemony in the Western Hemisphere?

Not sure anyone could have challanged the USN outright. But it could have got into some "interesting" policing actions especially if it tried to dampen down some of the conflicts that were happening in S America at the time.

However suppose after the Civil War the US decided to become expansionist and looked towards S America ? Could be seen as a way of trying to unite a fractured country after the war ? This might have led to some interesting conflicts with perhaps some of the S American states suspending there differences and joining together if only temporarily ? Not saying the US would want to aquire territory but it might want to control it ?

The US did become expansionist.    However its direction was toward the west, not south.

Oops - Appreciate that Rickshaw. Should have been clearer and said " what if the US became expansionist towards S America as well as to the West".  It could of managed both I assume ? I have no real idea how much the expansion into the Western States cost the US ecconomy. I know any expansion into S America would have had a massive financial impact and I'm not sure this could have been absorbed by the then current US financial/political system ?

The expansion westward paid for the industrialisation of the USA, particularly in steel.  Without that expansion, the US wouldn't have needed railways.  Without railways, it wouldn't have needed steel.  No expansion westwards would have meant fewer foundries and fewer foundries would have meant a much smaller steel navy.   Essentially, no, it couldn't have seen an expansion southwards without the expansion westward first.  Which is why you don't see the US invading Cuba until 1898.  Once the west was won, then you see "manifest destiny" manifesting itself in expansionist policies in the Caribbean, the Philippines and Asia (primarily China).  American industrial development in the second half of the 19th century was primarily founded on steel for the railways, just as the UK's industrial development in the previous century was primarily founded on the clothing industry.

[NARSES2]

The expansion westward paid for the industrialisation of the USA, particularly in steel.  Without that expansion, the US wouldn't have needed railways.  Without railways, it wouldn't have needed steel.  No expansion westwards would have meant fewer foundries and fewer foundries would have meant a much smaller steel navy.   Essentially, no, it couldn't have seen an expansion southwards without the expansion westward first.  Which is why you don't see the US invading Cuba until 1898.  Once the west was won, then you see "manifest destiny" manifesting itself in expansionist policies in the Caribbean, the Philippines and Asia (primarily China).  American industrial development in the second half of the 19th century was primarily founded on steel for the railways, just as the UK's industrial development in the previous century was primarily founded on the clothing industry.

Thanks for that. Being an ex steel man myself I knew how important the industry was in late 19th/20th century US history but never really made the link between steel the railways and the US becoming a world player. Thanks again

The US attitude to China in the 20thC is a very interesting subject especially from a European eye but not one for this thread

Chris

[Chris707]

Turns out, in the fall of 1891 there was a bar fight between sailors from the USS Baltimore and Chileans that escalated into a major international incident - President Harrison directed that the USN prepare for war with Chile, and shipyards were running 24/7 to prepare. Naval intelligence began preparing dossiers on Chilean strengths and weaknesses, and plans were made to seize a port and hold it with Army troops until the Chileans apologized. I'm sure that the rich Chilean nitrate fields had more to do with it than Harrison's hurt feelings over a brawl. By January, 20 ships were active, with more being refitted and nearing completion - Harrison was apparently on the verge of asking Congress for a declaration of war, when Chile made an indeminity .  Apparently, this was the the first time that the US engaged in planning for an overseas  war.

Here's an interesting whif history of a US-Chilean war:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:uBSUHVXqPCoJ:www.seekrieg.com/GameSetup-Coquimbo1892.pdf+chile+war+1892&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESintZ-DUH9S1kxmNFypJ0wq-HqZuMp81-PXZUig8WBDxja1cG0GCm08rPoYskx3l9aEUK8DqK3jisoS2vmOKk44b_LjUwj1hd5Ps6g0tp3W63yq0Tnrbvvv1SK7D2_yJaoXNouz&sig=AHIEtbSMVAfcBpq484-QgTp2ZFI1JZn1wg