Flying torp Walls

[jcf]

The Long Lance was a submarine and destroyer carried weapon only, the finicky compressed oxygen
propulsion system would not have survived an air drop, as any disturbance or kink in the gas pipes
caused friction, fire and then boom. The IJN had them blow up while being
handled on deck, not a good design for an aircraft weapon.

Experiments were done with dropping full size torpedoes, however all air arms found it was better to use
purpose designed aerial torpedoes.

The Hall XPTBH was designed to carry the standard USN 21" destroyer torpedo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_XPTBH

It was not a success.

The original specification that led to the Lancaster, via the Manchester, called for the carriage of two torpedoes,
along with the rather unique requirement of catapult launch.  The torpedoes were to be of 18 inch diameter and
18 ft, 2.5 in long. Which makes the torpedoes the same diameter but about two feet longer than the 18-inch Mk XII.

Attached is a drawing of two Mark XII in a Coastal Command Mk 1 Wellington load-out.

[tahsin]

I believe B-17s were used in torpedo attacks against the Japanese and Mussolini's son who was a bomber pilot in WW2 was for using the Italian heavy bomber in such attacks , with the ability to carry 3 weapons .

[Weaver]

Rickshaw: my understanding is that the Lanc could only carry 22,000 lb Tallboys by having most of it's guns and all of it's armour stripped out plus various other weight-saving measures. I'd suggest that that wouldn't be too clever for an aircraft attacking ships which may have carrier cover beyond the rangeof it's own fighter cover.

As Jon points out, the requirements and conditions for an air-dropped torpedo are so different to those for a surface-launched one that it was usually worth developing different weapons for the two roles. I'd suggest the best solution for a four-torp Lanc would be four "short fat" weapons carried internally. The diameter wouldn't be a big deal because Lancs proved capable of taking a variety of bulged doors. A US Mk.13, for example, was 13'5" long with a diameter of 22.5" and weighed 2,215 lb. A Lanc could comfortably have carried four of these internally, and there'd be enough excess space/weight to tweak the design to get maximum performance within the Lanc's envelope.

The Lanc's bomb bay was 33 feet long, 5 feet wide and the capacity was 14,000 lb. Allowing for handling space and weight growth, that means a specially designed four-per-Lanc torpedo program should be shooting for 16 feet long,  26 inch diameter and 3000lb weight. It's not a Long Lance, but it's still a pretty awesome air-launched torpedo.

[rickshaw]

Weaver, you're assuming they'd need to be carried internally.  I'm not.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Let us imagine a world similar to our own but somewhat different.  A world where carrier aviation never really developed properly for various reasons which we won't go into here for the sake of brevity.  Where instead effort was placed into land-based aviation by navies of the world.   In this world, large, multi-engined bombers were developed to carry large numbers of torpedos far from land to attack opposing fleets well out at sea.  Chief amongst these bombers was the Avro Manchester and its later more successful four engined development, the Lancaster.  It saw double duty as a strategic bomber for the air offensive against the Axis in Europe.

Consummate with the development of these bombers of course was the development of the weapons they were intended to carry.  The Royal Navy Type XXIII Torpedo was the pinnacle of the conventional torpedo's design.  Powered by purified compressed oxygen and kerosene, it was capable of extremely long ranges, high speeds and carried a massive warhead, able to punch its way through the heaviest armour.   It was used in land installations, ships and from aircraft.   While it was an extremely touchy weapon, the Royal Navy decided that its capabilities far outweighed its problems.  It was initially hated by the aircrews which manned the aircraft that carried it because of its propensity to seemingly explode at the merest whim.  However, as the bugs were ironed out, the weapon's reliability improved considerably and after it had demonstrated its abilities when dropped from aircraft, it grew to be admired as well.

The abilities of the Type XXIII when dropped from the Manchester and Lancaster aircraft were amply demonstrated when they successfully were used to sink the German battleship Bismarck in the North Atlantic.  Operating from UK bases they managed to find and intercept the Bismarck in May 1941 and sank her when a large spread of torpedos were dropped at over 10,000 yards, well outside the ship's AA screen's range.   The accompanying battle cruiser Prinz Eugen barely escaped, only through fast and rapid manoeuvring when its captain realised that the attacking aircraft had not, as the commander of the Bismarck believed, simply sheered off, being unwilling to face the their AA weapons.   For that arrogance, by sailing blithely on, Admiral Günther Lütjens paid with his life and that of nearly the whole crew of the Bismarck.  Prinz Eugen fled to the French port of Brest.

Their next success occurred when they successfully barred the Channel to the three German battle cruisers Scharnhorst, Gneisenau & Prinz Eugen when they made their ill-fated "Channel Dash", attempting to flee through the Channel from Brest back to Germany.   Fired from shore defences along the UK coast, the three ships were all sunk, one after another as they sped through the channel in line astern.

However, it was the Indian Ocean when perhaps their crowning moment came.  After the Japanese attacked at Pearl Harbor using their battleships to bombard the American fleet which they had caught in port by a surprise attack.  The few US Navy ships which managed to get up steam and attempted to sally out of the narrow entrance of the harbour were destroyed by the Japanese's own version of the Type XXIII, the Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedo.

The Japanese battle fleet after a refit chose several months later to attempt to repeat their success by destroying the small British fleet in the Indian Ocean, guarding India and Ceylon.   The British had rushed a squadron of Lancasters to Ceylon from the eastern Mediterrean Sea where they had dominated the Italian fleet.   They successfully engaged the Japanese fleet well out in the Indian Ocean, near the small British colony of Christmas Island.  Attacking at dawn, the Lancasters sank several ships, including the mighty battleship, the Yamato, the largest and most powerful battleship in the world.   The Japanese had largely ignored the reports of the Type XXIII's abilities, despite having their own version of the weapon.   

[to be continued if sufficient interest]

[Thiel]

The RDN were planning a droque/parasail combo that would have allowed high-level High-speed drops.
Unfortunately, this was in 1940, so it never made it off the napkin-stage, and by the time the RDN had enough funds to start developing it again, they'd lost their air arm, and the Air Force couldn't see the use in air dropped torpedoes.

[Weaver]

Weaver, you're assuming they'd need to be carried internally.  I'm not.

As ever with whiffs, it depends on your starting premise. I was sticking to the modified-real-world concept which had us discussing the capabilities of real Lancasters. My point really was that, given your requirement for a 10,000 yd drop range, a Long Lance was excessively big, and you could design a custom-fit torpedo which would achieve that whilst being small enough to fit four in the bomb bay, without the drag or redesign involved in giving the Lanc external hardpoints. Given that long aircraft range is a pre-requisite in these scenarios, I'd think that the reduced drag of entirely internal carriage was worth it.

If instead we're postulating a radically different universe in which carrier aviation never happened, then of course, you can re-design the Lanc on the drawing board, and probably trade some defensive guns and armour for more payload since the fighter threat will be far lower. The logic of your 10,000 yd drop range (outside defensive fire) still applies however, so in this case it would be better to carry six of my "Short-Long-Lance" weapons (four in the bay, two external) rather than four full size ones which are going to hit their targets with half full fuel tanks most of the time.

[arkon]

zombolt , i play nf also on the nebraska server( used to be yamoto), under the name arkonkill. im in the blue max fleet and have my own squad in it , the fokker squad, send me a message and maybe we can both be on sometime.

[rickshaw]

Weaver, you're assuming they'd need to be carried internally.  I'm not.

As ever with whiffs, it depends on your starting premise. I was sticking to the modified-real-world concept which had us discussing the capabilities of real Lancasters. My point really was that, given your requirement for a 10,000 yd drop range, a Long Lance was excessively big, and you could design a custom-fit torpedo which would achieve that whilst being small enough to fit four in the bomb bay, without the drag or redesign involved in giving the Lanc external hardpoints. Given that long aircraft range is a pre-requisite in these scenarios, I'd think that the reduced drag of entirely internal carriage was worth it.

If instead we're postulating a radically different universe in which carrier aviation never happened, then of course, you can re-design the Lanc on the drawing board, and probably trade some defensive guns and armour for more payload since the fighter threat will be far lower. The logic of your 10,000 yd drop range (outside defensive fire) still applies however, so in this case it would be better to carry six of my "Short-Long-Lance" weapons (four in the bay, two external) rather than four full size ones which are going to hit their targets with half full fuel tanks most of the time.

You're right that there are assumptions in everything we postulate, just as there are in real life.  My story was merely an effort to mould the facts to fit the premise. 

However, you can see immediately what effect the RN having possession of their own Long Lances would have had on the war, particularly in European waters.  While having something this powerful which could be dropped from aircraft, well out at sea would have complicated matters enormously for both sides in the Pacific.

For myself, having extra range never goes astray in a weapon.   Your one - which is equally valid BTW - is limited to 10,000 yds.  Using the full size weapon you're not. 

Now will be the first to build an RN FAA Lancaster?   Or would it be a RAF Coastal Command one as the FAA might never have come into existence?

[Old Wombat]

OK, here's a little mental image that, to me, works whether there are aircraft carriers or not.

It's either dusk or dawn, either way it's twilight

A squadron of B-17's/Lancaster's/B-24's (or even a purpose-built 4-engine torpedo plane) flying in a defensive-diamond formation.
The lead plane doesn't carry torpedoes but, rather, a search radar with which it is guiding the rest of the squadron towards an enemy convoy for a "dark side"( ) approach.
Slowly the aircraft descend to keep their smaller radar signatures lost in the sea-level radar clutter caused by the curve of the Earth.
Finally, there is no more curvature & the aircraft slip into line & hug the sea. At 15,000 & 10,000 metres they drop their torpedoes & turn south/north.
Several minutes later a wall of water rises along the side of an escort cruiser, a freighter loaded with munitions disappears in a massive explosion, an oil tanker erupts in flame & an ASW destroyer loses her bow & sinks.

The cruiser survives the attack but is sunk whilst under tow 2 days later, by a submarine.

[Zombolt]

zombolt , i play nf also on the nebraska server( used to be yamoto), under the name arkonkill. im in the blue max fleet and have my own squad in it , the fokker squad, send me a message and maybe we can both be on sometime.

I use to play NF, then I got a little tired of the grind, though I did play on the New york server. I also worked with Team BNF.