W.E. Petter's Influence

[daniel_g]

One thing that stands out in the British Aerospace industry is that a Tram Manufacturer from Preston (am I being harsh about English Electric ) started constructing Hampden bombers setting up a shadow factory in 1940; developed the RAFs longest serving combat aircraft (IIRC?) flying 9 years later; Britain's only mach 2 aircraft (non-international) 5 years later; 50% of the TSR2 effort; then designed the Mach 4+ P.42 (amongst several options); before their Warton site become the heart of British military aviation for the next 50 years.

I've read bits about W.E. Petter taking his design team to EE after leaving Westland, and subsequently taking them to Folland. So I'm wondering, was Petter's design for the  Canberra penned and given the nod by the MoD irrespective of his employer? And given his success in getting the RAF to buy the Folland Gnat, to what extend was his departure from EE during the Lightning development a loss to the TSR2 design?

[DamienB]

I'm not sure you could call the Gnat a success, when he wanted to sell them a lightweight fighter - not a trainer. My feeling has always been that the Gnat trainer was a sop offered to Folland by a government carefully spreading work around the industry - it was, after all, a less than ideal trainer as it had so many foibles of its own that students were mostly being trained specifically in how to fly a Gnat, rather than carrying out more generically useful training. Petter's obsession with the lightweight and small aircraft may have made him a useful member of an alternate world TSR2 design team - but given the RAF's attitude at the time, would have been more likely to get him quietly sidelined.

[daniel_g]

So am I reading too much into it?  The odd thing with Folland, is they were a very small organisation and surely it was more important to maintain production at one of the big players?  And with regard to the Canberra, right place at the right time rather than a great design?

[PR19_Kit]

 And with regard to the Canberra, right place at the right time rather than a great design?

What? 

It was a GREAT design, as well as being in the right place at the right time. Even the USAF bought it, so it must have been............ 

[Glenn Gilbertson]

My father was with Follands 1938-1955, finishing as general manager. His opinion was that the Gnat project was a mistake - the company should have stuck to its core sub-contract work (in his words as a good Lancastrian "there's always good money to be made sorting out the s****y little jobs that other people have c****d up"). Many found Petter a very difficult personality, apparently  unwilling to accept any criticism of his designs. I was told that US purchasing officers for NATO asked for a version of the Gnat to be produced with larger tyres for rough fields, but Petter refused to redesign the undercarriage. It was take it or leave it, so they left it. Petter eventually left with his family to contemplate on a Swiss mountain. The search for smaller cheaper fighters continues - like, er, inexpensive F-35's?

[Mossie]

Compared to Glenn & Damien I'm uninformed but my feeling is that the Gnat was a good basic design that wasn't developed to it's full potential for varied reasons; the politcal climate in the UK, predjudice against the light fighter concept (some of it justified) & Petter's personality.  India showed that the Gnat could be a succesful combat jet & HAL showed that it could be improved on as the Ajeet.  I also think it's development problems were comparable to other British jets of the same period.

[PR19_Kit]

...and if he hadn't have done the Gnat trainer we may not have had the Red Arrows today! 

[P1127]

My feeling has always been that the Gnat trainer was a sop offered to Folland by a government carefully spreading work around the industry - it was, after all, a less than ideal trainer as it had so many foibles of its own that students were mostly being trained specifically in how to fly a Gnat, rather than carrying out more generically useful training.

The folly of the Gant as an advanced trainer was surely shown when they had to use HUnter T7s for those pilots who were physically too big for the Gnat?

I do have a WHIF idea for an RAF T-38, purchased as an interim type for 228 OCU as the Gnat was deemed too small to train pilots destined for the F-4.......

[philp]

Ooh, a Red Arrow T-38...

[alertken]

Creative folk attract (jealous) sniping. Westland Aircraft Ltd. was spun off from Petter's Ltd, 4/7/35, and investors secured, under Air Ministry urging, as John Brown Ltd (50%) and A.E.I.l.Ltd (18.75%), 7/38. Eric Mensforth become the professional MD of what had been a family firm; in his Family Engineers,Ward Locke,1981,P.113: Westland's "superb design engineer " Technical Director W.Petter sought "absolute control (in) all aspects (so with WAL's) goodwill and the embryo bomber design (to be A.1, he)" migrated North. EE in 1944 had no Design Office (precursors had been production shadows in WW1, graduating to some original work - Ayr, Kingston); the site had been brought back into Aero shadow production in 1936 by Air Minister Swinton. He had assured the established designer Ring that shadows would be there only for the duration, and would not be set up as future competitors. Minister Cripps' sending Petter to Preston conflicted with that: he did it because he was disenchanted with the Ring's production competence, enchanted by EE's performance on Halifax despite, not because of HP. Cripps wished to retain Preston, post-War to combine volume competence with design resources.

No "team": R.Bud/P.Gummett,Cold War Hot Science,Harwood,1999 has RAE disparaging EE in 1945 as contractor for the jet Light Bomber, as being effectively a one-man show.

Folland Aircraft Ltd. in 1950 was a parts supplier (Vampire/Dove/Chipmunk wings, Dove tails). Petter's move there was, again, as a one-man show, where he faced no institutional inertia/bureaucracy to impede his creativity. He became disenchanted with those not sharing his vision, of Keep it Simple, Stupid, and decamped to (what today we call a) retreat.

(added, 25/6/11: ) WEWP was at Preston, 7/44 - 2/50, by when a team had been established which turned P.1 platform into Lightning weapon system.
My own view is that the clever clutter, that lifts an Air Vehicle into a fighting machine, also lifted the Task beyond the scope of any one genius. Barnes Wallis became junior in V-A to a team, Camm, Geo.DH, Fred.HP...all ditto likewise. "Influence" became general "style" rather than precise inspiration.

[Mossie]

Ooh, a Red Arrow T-38...

That's got to be done....

[GTX]

Ooh, a Red Arrow T-38...

That's got to be done....

Definitely!