Idle thoughts -- West Indies Federation, now working on the Navy

[Weaver]

Weaver, Tornado F.3s are already coming on line -- as they are retired from RAF service they are being refreshed and sent to the Caribbean (a squadron worth so far - see OP).

Keep the navy suggestions coming! The navy can be created from scratch here, from about 1960-on. The only thing I can see is that AORs and the like probably wouldn't be needed as the navy is always pretty close to a shore base of some sort. There should be an essential British-ness to the navy as well.   I do like the idea of PHMs, though.

My question about the F.3s though, was what do they come armed with? RAF F.3s had AIM-120s and AIM-137s before they were retired: are the RAF transferring those with them, or are they just dumping their Skyflash & AIM-9s on you? The US plays games with permission to buy or re-export AIM-120s....

If the navy has an RN feel then surely Leanders would have featured in it's line-up in the 60s/70s and might still be there: they're long-lived buggers! Alternatively in thr 1970s, how about Vosper frigates? They go right up from mere gunboats (Nigerian Mk.3 Hippos) through small corvettes (Nigerian Mk.9 Hippos) to small, very fast frigates (Iranian Mk.5 Saams and Libyan Mk.7 Dat Assawari) through the Amazons up to Mk.10s (Brazilian Niterois).

The problem with PHMs is that they only have two speeds: very fast and too slow. When they're not up on the foils, the drag of them reduces speed a lot and/or eat fuel, and they significantly increase the draught, which is not good in a coastal unit. You can raise them of course, they then block the weapon arcs...

I can well see the Federation going through a FAC phase like just about every other small navy in the 1970s, but as I said, real world combat has very much taken the shine off the concept ever since Libyan boats got trashed by USN jets and Iraqi ones by RN Lynxes. If you must have them and you want to buy British, then the Vosper 52m boats supplied to Egypt (Ramadan class) are particularly impressive. The weapon fit (single 76mm, twin 40mm, 4 OTOMATs) looks pretty standard, but they mount two search radars, two fire control radars, and a decent ESM system (all British), which is more than some "frigates" can manage.

Probably the most experienced and successful FAC users are the Israelis (though even they've moved up to proper corvettes now). If you look at their Saars, you see two different kinds of AShM with different guidance methods and LOADS of chaff rockets, decoys and ESM/ECM gear. South Africa, Singapore and Taiwan have all tapped into Israeli experience.

[pyro-manic]

Lots and lots of frigates/corvettes. Upgraded Batch III (ie Sea Wolf-armed) Leander-class vessels would be an excellent start IMO, though they'd be getting a bit long in the tooth now. Perhaps the Type 21 frigates would be a good alternative - replace the Sea Cat and Exocets with a Sea Wolf or Sea Sparrow launcher and a couple of directors. And just say that the later batch which now equips the WIFN were built entirely from steel, as opposed to having aluminium superstructures...

EDIT: Seems Weaver beat me to it! 

[Weaver]

You can't put any more weight on a Type-21 or the quarterdeck goes underwater at modest lean angles, which is why the RN gave up on any significant refit plans. if it was the late 1960s/early 1970s and I wanted a Vosper frigate, then the ones I'd pick would be:

Small: Mk.5. Similar to Iranian Saams but with four OTOMATs and triple TTs in place of Sea Killer and Limbo. These things are as fast as many FACs but can really defend themselves. No helicopter though. The export triple Seacat launcher could be replaced with something like Sadral or RBS-70 in the 1990s.

Big: Mk.10. Similar to re-fitted Brazilian Niterois (ASW variant) but from new. Aspide or Seawolf on quarterdeck (in place of Ikara), tracker on hanger roof in place of Seacats. Second tracker forwards if it'll fit. Four OTOMATs or Exocets amidships like the GP version.

A combination of both would be interesting: a Mk.10 acting a "flotilla leader" for two or three Mk.5s.

[rallymodeller]

Yeah, thought about the armament issue and it seems logical that they would go to AMRAAMs but keep the Sidewinders for now and bring -137s in gradually as the older aircraft are retired or refitted (and stocks of -9Ls are used up). I really can't see the US having issues with the WIF having AMRAAMs; politically it makes sense. In a Caribbean/Central American sense the general policies of the US and the WIF line up pretty well (apart from Cuba, which is another story entirely). Any plane that can use Sparrows can use AMRAAMs so it's a logical step. Going to AMRAAMs and ASRAAMs at the same time might be a little tough logistically, unless it's only the F.3s so equipped.

As to the navy, I'll have to take your word for it. The extent of my naval knowledge is limited to Canadian, American and Soviet ships and what I can dimly remember from playing the Harpoon table game many moons ago. I can also tell a naval ship when I see it. Tell you what, Weaver: You are now the Deputy Defense Minister (Navy). Have at it. A villa on St Lucia comes with the portfolio; Navy HQ is in Castries. Air assets are part of the Air Force but seconded to the Navy; if you can see anything that the Navy needs let me know for the full force breakdown post. Right now I see about 14-16 Naval Lynxes, 8-10 Orion/Auroras, and some odds and sods for SAR and such. Expand/elaborate as you will.

How about using aerostat tethered balloons for the AEW role? There's a lot of of islands where you coul fly them from.

Whoa! What a great idea! It's a natural. Takes up little space, simple to maintain, great OTH capability. Good idea, we'll go with that and Orion AWACS for backup.

[scooter]

How about using aerostat tethered balloons for the AEW role? There's a lot of of islands where you coul fly them from.

Whoa! What a great idea! It's a natural. Takes up little space, simple to maintain, great OTH capability. Good idea, we'll go with that and Orion AWACS for backup.

One step further, who say you need an island?  Anyone remember the Dale Brown novel "Hammerheads"?  You can base the aerostats on an oil platform, plus that gives you additional helo bases out in the middle of Caribbean.  Except during hurricane season, but then no one's going out there.

Anyone know what kind of flow noises a PHM would have when drifting?  I suddenly got to thinking about using them in an ASW coordination role, with a dipping style sonar transducer.  Drift along, listening then run at high speeds to your next coordinates, go to idle, lather, rinse, repeat, working with Seahawks/Sea Kings/Lynxes from the destroyers, figs, and above mentioned platforms.

[Weaver]

I'm still trying to establish the timeline of Venezuela's navy in order to see what the response of the WIF might have been. As far as I can see, they used ex-USN WWII destroyers, armed only with guns, until the late 1970s/early 1980s, when they acquired the 6 Lupos and 6 Constitution-class FACs from the UK, three of which were armed with OTOMAT + 40mm, three with 76mm + MGs.

if this is correct, I can see two distinct phases in WIF policy: the low-threat era up to 1982 and the high threat era after that. This is because those bloody OTOMATs are real game-changers. Not only do they have formidable range and hitting power, but they're capable of getting mid-course guidance from the frigate's AB-212 helo, thus enabling them to fly dog-leg courses which conceal the frigate's bearing from the target and allow round-the-corner shots against non-line-of-site targets, such as those on the other side of an island...

I've set 1982 as the changeover point because I can imagine the British influenced WIF Navy being a bit complacent up to the point where the Falklands War gives them a rude wake-up call about Exocet-style weapons. After that, a couple of imperetives come to the fore:

1) Every ship needs a credible anti-OTOMAT defence,

2) It would be nice to be able to knock-down or chase away a lurking AB-212, which means either medium-range SAMs or possibly helicopter "fighters", i.e. Lynxes with air-to-air weapons....

[rallymodeller]

Well, concerning MRSAMs, Sea Wolf is always available, or Sea Sparrow or something along those lines.

However, your idea of air-to-air weapons on the Lynxes got me to thinking: strapping Blowpipe/Javelin/Stinger launchers on Lynxes (sort of a pre-Stinger idea) is doable, especially as even the early Lynxes are about a million times more maneuverable than the AB212, and about 50 knots faster, too. A single-shot Blowpipe/Javelin would be really lightweight, easy to install and even if it doesn't hit would be a hell of a deterrent were it to go whizzing by.  Something that light, cheap and available would be right up the WIF MoD's alley.

[Weaver]

Well, concerning MRSAMs, Sea Wolf is always available, or Sea Sparrow or something along those lines.

They're not medium range, they're short range (5 miles and 8 miles respectively). The AB212 can do it's work from farther out than that, as can all such anti-ship tasked helos: it's why they have the radars they have. You'd need something like Standard MR or Sea Dart to really push them back out of radar range.

However, your idea of air-to-air weapons on the Lynxes got me to thinking: strapping Blowpipe/Javelin/Stinger launchers on Lynxes (sort of a pre-Stinger idea) is doable, especially as even the early Lynxes are about a million times more maneuverable than the AB212, and about 50 knots faster, too. A single-shot Blowpipe/Javelin would be really lightweight, easy to install and even if it doesn't hit would be a hell of a deterrent were it to go whizzing by.  Something that light, cheap and available would be right up the WIF MoD's alley.

Yeah I think it's got legs too. Another thought occurs to me: the Lynx's Sea Spray radar guides Sea Skuas by semi-active homing, and I understand that the latter's homing head is based on that of Skyflash. Might it be possible to fire a Skyflash from a Lynx? I know the USN did tests with Sparrows from Seasprites back in the early 1960s.....

Alternatively, might it be possible to modify Sea Skua to home in on an air target? I think that in principle, all that would be needed is a change to the software to make the radar-altimeter-determined sea-skimming height a minimum floor, rather than a mandatory ceiling. it might not have the speed to hit a jet fighter but it can sure-as-hell outrun a helo...

[Geoff]

Alternativly if the changes to the Skyflash or Sea Skua are too expensive a simple 20mm cannon would have a similar effect but not as quickly as an AAM?

[Weaver]

Alternativly if the changes to the Skyflash or Sea Skua are too expensive a simple 20mm cannon would have a similar effect but not as quickly as an AAM?

Oh sure: you could fly up to it and rake it with a GPMG from the door if you wanted. The issue is reaction time: as soon as that AB212 has a radar lock on you, an OTOMAT might be on it's way. The Lynx crew are going to look pretty sick if they down the Agusta at about the same time the OTOMAT hits their ship... Being able to throw a supersonic missile at the AB from 8 miles away is good, as is downing it with an anti-FPB Sea Skua that you're likely to be carrying anyway.

[Geoff]

Yep agreed.