Billy Mitchell: Fighters Are Essential to a Daytime Bombing Mission

[Old Wombat]

The Whirlwind was designed around the Peregrine. It couldn't have taken Merlins without serious redesign, IIRC.

That is my understanding, also. I believe the aircraft was extremely finely balanced, which gave it exceptional agility for its weight & size, & surprisingly fast, given the relatively low power of the engines, but that all of this was reliant on mass distribution with Peregrine engines installed. A total redesign would have been needed to fit Merlins & the Air Ministry had gone off the idea of twin-engined fighters by then, & was loath to use Merlins for anything other than single engine fighters.

I often wonder why people want to upgrade the Whirlwind when the Mosquito was just around the corner and was much more adaptable and useful than the Whirlwind.   You could use the Whirlwind for two roles (Fighter or Fighter-Bomber).  You could use a Mosquito for multiple roles and it would excel at all of them and at a substantially longer range.

My favourite plane, the de Havilland Mosquito, but it was almost a never-was (if not for the persistence of Geoffrey de Havilland & the cautious support of Air Marshal Wilfred Freeman) & the Air Ministry, even when they did come around, were only interested in it as a fast bomber (again, if not for the persistence of G de H & the cautious support of Air Marshal Freeman, it would have stayed that way).

Now, if that had continued & the Peregrine had lived up to expectations & had been developed as much as the Merlin, & the Whirlwind had received as much airframe developement as the Mosquito & the Spitfire, then the Whirlwind might have been utilised as a low-level escort fighter for Mosquito bombers. As Whirlwinds were used as bomber escorts by the RAF, albeit in desperation as the aircraft had a much better low-level performance than high level.

(Remember, we're talking 1939/40 here for the initial steps.)

I refer you to the wikipedia article, especially the "Evaluation", at the end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Whirlwind_%28fighter%29

[RussC]

How about two Whittle or other early jet powerplants ?

Bit of a problem there.  Where do you put the undercarriage?

I'm a believer in wide track u/c so I would pod them slightly outboard or inboard of the jets, low slung pods. Or blend them into the jet cowls, down low. Would not dream of thickening that wonderful wing to take tires and struts.

[RussC]

I often wonder why people want to upgrade the Whirlwind.......

Because it's there!   

And we can! 

[RussC]

I often wonder why people want to upgrade the Whirlwind.......

Because it's there!   

And we can! 

And we do !

BWA HA HA HA HA!

[rickshaw]

Yikes!   

You really do know how to scare a person, don't you? 

Are they fins on top of the engines?   Must do wonders for the pilot's vision...

Apart from that, quite interesting.  If you put the fins in the conventional position it'd work.

[RussC]

They are also evap radiators for the oil cooling system. I don't think they would be enough to keep a Griffon cool so there would be a regular radiator under each nacelle about even with the roundels, a streamlined concentric bath.
Actually they are not a big chunk of vision lost in that spot except during taxiing, the usual taildraggers malady. In the rear position, they would be less directional stability and would impede the very important peripheral rear view.
Was also thinking of a Off axis version with the cockpit on one of the pods, instead of on center, then those fins would have to be canted inwards to maybe 45 degrees.

[KJ_Lesnick]

rickshaw

When introduced into service the Whirlwind carried the heaviest armament of any fighter, Kendra.  No other operational fighter carried 4 x 20mm cannon.

I didn't say it wasn't a heavy fighter; I said it didn't weigh much (it was about 10,000 or 11,000 pounds) and wasn't very large (smaller than a P-51).

It was also the first twin-engined modern heavy fighter introduced into operational service as well, beating the Bf110 by a few months and the P-38 by nearly a year IIRC.

The Bf110 first flew in May 1936 and entered service in 1937; the Whirlwind first flew in October 1938, entering service in June 1940; the P-38 first flew in late January 1939, entering service in 1941.

The P-38 had considerable teething problems as well, which prevented it becoming effective before about mid-1942.

True, but I think one could agree that using the P-38's as escorts, while not the best fighter in the world, would have improved things significantly over flying unescorted.

[rickshaw]

rickshaw

When introduced into service the Whirlwind carried the heaviest armament of any fighter, Kendra.  No other operational fighter carried 4 x 20mm cannon.

I didn't say it wasn't a heavy fighter; I said it didn't weigh much (it was about 10,000 or 11,000 pounds) and wasn't very large (smaller than a P-51).

You belittled it's performance and its armament, suggesting it wasn't effective in the role it was utilised in.

It was also the first twin-engined modern heavy fighter introduced into operational service as well, beating the Bf110 by a few months and the P-38 by nearly a year IIRC.

The Bf110 first flew in May 1936 and entered service in 1937; the Whirlwind first flew in October 1938, entering service in June 1940; the P-38 first flew in late January 1939, entering service in 1941.

Moyes in the point in the Profile on the Whirlwind, that as a twin-engined heavy fighter, it was:

The first such machine to be used in any numbers by the great powers.

The RLM, despite the propaganda to the contrary was slow to adopt the Bf110, with only one squadron in 1939.  Several more were being formed in early 1940, as I recall.

The P-38 had considerable teething problems as well, which prevented it becoming effective before about mid-1942.

True, but I think one could agree that using the P-38's as escorts, while not the best fighter in the world, would have improved things significantly over flying unescorted.

Which would be better, Kendra?  A Whirlwind that worked or a P-38 that didn't?   Which carried the heavier armament and was more manoeuvrable?

[KJ_Lesnick]

Rickshaw

You belittled it's performance and its armament, suggesting it wasn't effective in the role it was utilised in.

I didn't intend to belittle it's armament though admittedly I commented on it being a bit small (though I suppose that's a good thing actually).  As for range, I've heard things to suggest it had long range, others to indicate it's range was poor.

The RLM, despite the propaganda to the contrary was slow to adopt the Bf110, with only one squadron in 1939.  Several more were being formed in early 1940, as I recall.

I found the figures in Wikipedia.  Interesting that the aircraft took so long to be adopted to active service.

Which would be better, Kendra?  A Whirlwind that worked or a P-38 that didn't?   Which carried the heavier armament and was more manoeuvrable?

The Westland Whirlwind had a better armament and possessed a greater degree of agility.  However, I'm unsure what range the Whirlwind had, and while there was at least one article that referred to it as being a suitable escort, others referred to it as having a hideous range.  I've never heard anything to clear it up.


K.J.