CHARIOTEER TANK DESTROYER 1/72 Belgium WWII 1946

marco · July 01, 2012, 07:47:02 AM

hello!
Well, i've discovered this interesting tank destroyer few times ago (yes, i'm a too focused on french tanks so i do have some BIG lacks on british tanks!!)
So the back story:
After overlord the Allies did have a very difficult progression in France. Germans succeed containing a very hard battle on the Seine river, and where pushed out of France only at the end of 1945...
Hitler's army succeed in winter 45 the Bulges battle and now the front is in Belgium..
Centurion Mk I and Charioteers are here to fight the Panzers and give a real punch to the allies tank forces!
The kit is a cromwell from Armourfast with a very nice coversion from Model miniature
http://model-miniature.perso.sfr.fr/references/box%20charioteer.jpg

Joe C-P · July 01, 2012, 12:57:19 PM

Interesting idea. I like the dio.

Jacques Deguerre · July 01, 2012, 01:08:18 PM

I like it! The Charioteer is a sadly neglected part of the British cruiser tank family, so always it's nice to see a model of one.

marco · July 01, 2012, 08:04:16 PM

Thank you!
that one is wearing decals of the Matchbox A34 Mk1 Comet "2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry", that he could have replaced ....

I didn't made the dio... sorry, i've bought it long time ago, with second hands kits... The maker is unknown...

Thorvic · July 01, 2012, 10:21:00 PM

Quote from: marco on July 01, 2012, 08:04:16 PM
Thank you!
that one is wearing decals of the Matchbox A34 Mk1 Comet "2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry", that he could have replaced ....
I didn't made the dio... sorry, i've bought it long time ago, with second hands kits... The maker is unknown...

The Charioteer was intended to be a Firefly version on the Cromwell to work with Cromwell units in the same manner as the Firefly was embedded with standard Shermans. The Comet was a next generation tank with a longer chassis and inbuilt 77mm gun to replace the Cromwells & Sherman units

Mr.Creak · July 02, 2012, 03:43:18 AM

Quote from: Thorvic on July 01, 2012, 10:21:00 PMThe Charioteer was intended to be a Firefly version on the Cromwell to work with Cromwell units in the same manner as the Firefly was embedded with standard Shermans.

You're thinking of the Challenger here, I think. The extended hull, extra road wheel and 17 pr version of Cromwell.
Charioteer was a post-war (and hence post-Cromwell) 20 pr-armed vehicle intended to give firepower to RAC TA units.

QuoteThe Comet was a next generation tank with a longer chassis and inbuilt 77mm gun to replace the Cromwells & Sherman units

Not so much a longer chassis (Cromwell 6.35 m/ Comet 6.55 m) as the fact that they got rid of the Christie suspension.
Christie type, although very good, tends to require a lot of "internal" volume. Switching to torsion bar made available the full width of the hull to fit a larger turret ring. Hence a larger weapon.

dy031101 · July 07, 2012, 08:03:27 AM

This kind of thing always brings a smile to my face (admittedly in a way that might incite anger within extremist elements of T-34-85's and Panther's fandoms

). It's too bad the "17 pdr Cromwell" concept didn't evolve into the Avenger in time for the war.

Quote from: Mr.Creak on July 02, 2012, 03:43:18 AM
Not so much a longer chassis (Cromwell 6.35 m/ Comet 6.55 m) as the fact that they got rid of the Christie suspension.

That's news to me- I thought that they didn't get rid of the Christie suspension until the Centurion, and that 77mm HV sacrificed some of the 17 pdr's power in exchange for compactness and ease of handling to go inside the Comet?

Another thing that puzzles me is the size and recoil of the 20 pdr compared to that of the 17 pdr- the Charioteer is said to be built on Cromwell hulls but carries the successor of the gun that Cromwell couldn't carry in WWII......

Mr.Creak · July 07, 2012, 08:30:35 AM

Quote from: dy031101 on July 07, 2012, 08:03:27 AMThat's news to me- I thought that they didn't get rid of the Christie suspension until the Centurion

Yes, sorry. I must have had a serious brain f*rt that day. Christie with return rollers. (Cent had Horstman - a guy who, incidentally, mentioned torsion bar suspension in his 1920s patent!)
Which brings us back to fitting the larger gun.
BUT - the 77mm grew out of the Vickers 75mm HV project, so presumably there'd be little dimensional difference - and the "reduced power" (cf 17 pr at least may have given a similar recoil length to the 75 )and recoil length is important.
Ha! just checked: recoil length on the 75 mm (Mk 5/ 5A) was 286 mm and for the 77 mm Mk II it was 280 mm.

QuoteAnother thing that puzzles me is the size and recoil of the 20 pdr compared to that of the 17 pdr- the Charioteer is said to be built on Cromwell hulls but carries the successor of the gun that Cromwell couldn't carry in WWII......

Charioteer was classed as tank destroyer (no co-ax mg for one thing) meaning that it would be employed differently than would a tank, and, from the looks of it, the gun is mounted higher in the turret than Cromwell's mounting - this means that there's more clearance between the breech and the turret ring even when the gun is elevated. Plus there's the larger "rear end" to the Charioteer's turret.