The Decision to replace the Mirage III in RAAF service

[PR19_Kit]

To some the idea of adopting a French aircraft would have seemed equally shocking.
Mon dieu!

They'd done that already with the Mirage IIIOs. Were there objections to the buy in Oz at the time?

[rickshaw]

To some the idea of adopting a French aircraft would have seemed equally shocking.
Mon dieu!

The Mirage III decision was, in retrospect the right one at the time.  It was up against two completely unsuitable aircraft - the E.E. Lightning and the Lockheed F-104.   Neither had the legs nor the ability to use a BVR missile.  Sure, the Matra R530 was a bit of a dog but it was a first generation SARH missile.   Neither was at that stage able to be used as a fighter-bomber.   The Mirage III could be.  By the time for a Mirage III replacement came around, the idea of French was not that uncomfortable for the RAAF.   The reason why the Mirage 2000 was eliminated in real life was because the competitors were so much better, not because it was French.   In my world, the failings of the Mirage 2000 were eliminated or compensated by the cheaper price, as well as access to the superior Mirage 4000.  Clever marketing wins over technical excellence all too often.   

[rickshaw]

To some the idea of adopting a French aircraft would have seemed equally shocking.
Mon dieu!

They'd done that already with the Mirage IIIOs. Were there objections to the buy in Oz at the time?

Of course there were.  Were they valid?  Not really.  While I love the Lightning, neither it or the F-104 were suitable for what the RAAF needed.   The Mirage IIIO answered the requirements of the RAAF.   Their choice of engine was more of a concern than the choice of the airframe.   Dassault apparently wanted the Avon, in order to make the Mirage III more attractive on the market.  The Atar-9 was cheaper and easier to build but it suffered from lower thrust and it's technology was older (based on the BMW 003), compared to the Avon which was partially based on the Sapphire.   The Australian Government decided on the Atar because the costs of using the Avon were appreciably higher - even if Dassault was going to bear most of the costs of adding it to the Mirage III.

[PR19_Kit]

Of course there were.  Were they valid?  Not really.  While I love the Lightning, neither it or the F-104 were suitable for what the RAAF needed.   The Mirage IIIO answered the requirements of the RAAF.   Their choice of engine was more of a concern than the choice of the airframe.   Dassault apparently wanted the Avon, in order to make the Mirage III more attractive on the market.  The Atar-9 was cheaper and easier to build but it suffered from lower thrust and it's technology was older (based on the BMW 003), compared to the Avon which was partially based on the Sapphire.   The Australian Government decided on the Atar because the costs of using the Avon were appreciably higher - even if Dassault was going to bear most of the costs of adding it to the Mirage III.

The Lightning's legs were too short for the UK really, let alone a place the size of Oz. You'd have needed a HUGE tanker force to give it even the ghost of a chance. 

Were there any other US applicants, the F-102 for example? Even them the Dagger had pretty short legs as well.

[rickshaw]

The Lightning's legs were too short for the UK really, let alone a place the size of Oz. You'd have needed a HUGE tanker force to give it even the ghost of a chance. 

As we would have been looking at the F.2 at most, it would have had very, very, short legs.   Just as the F-104 had very short legs,  as we would have been looking at the F-104C.   Airborne tankers?   For the RAAF?  Yea, gods, that would have been sensible!

Were there any other US applicants, the F-102 for example? Even them the Dagger had pretty short legs as well.

Nope.  I'd have thought the F-106 would have been suitable but apparently it and the F-102 were considered too specialised for a chance at our Fighter-Bomber.   I think the problem was that the mentality said, "if it is a fighter it needs to be smaller than a medium bomber..."   There was a CAC contender - a sort of F-104 contender but it was only on the drawing board and the RAAF as always wanted it's new aircraft now, not later.   As it was, the Mirage IIIs we built were slightly, ever so slightly, larger than the French built Mirage IIIs - the consequence of conversion from Metric to Imperial measurements.   It must have made the Pakistani's day when they took delivery of our surplus aircraft...   

[PR19_Kit]

As it was, the Mirage IIIs we built were slightly, ever so slightly, larger than the French built Mirage IIIs - the consequence of conversion from Metric to Imperial measurements.   It must have made the Pakistani's day when they took delivery of our surplus aircraft...   

Hehehe, I know that problem too. 

When I was working our US plant designed all the stuff, mechanical, hydraulic and electronic, but we also had a European plant in Berlin, and they 'knew better'.

So we had Euro actuators with the same model nos. as the US actuators but none of the parts of one type fitted the other type! When we installed a system in the UK I always made sure the US parts had red tie wraps on them somewhere and the Euro ones had blue tie wraps......