"Sensible" He177?

[Old Paul]

I've had a quick search, but couldn't find anything on this.  Has there been any discussion on an He177 design without all the original lunacy? Designed from the start with four separate engines/nacelles and no dive-bombing requirement? How might this have turned out? Could it also have been used as a Condor replacement?

[PR19_Kit]

Didn't they build one like that, with four separate engines I mean?

Checking on the Net says they did, it was the He-274 and for some reason it was built in France. 

[Weaver]

IIRC Ernst Heinkel was very keen on such an aircraft but Hitler and/or the Luftwaffe high-ups forbade it. He built it anyway to prove his point, but that only served to make SURE it was never authorised for production.

[NARSES2]

It was probably the dive bombing requirement that caused as big a problem as anything else. They might have been able to get around the problems the twinned engines caused, but at the time Hitler was insisting that every bomber/attack aircraft was designed with a dive bombing capability from the outset.

Designed as a straightforward 4 engined bomber it could well have been a successful type if they could have got it into operation in sufficient quantities and early enough. Could well have given the RAF's night fighter force some issues and at the least would of required a greater effort being put into Home Defence by the RAF

[Old Paul]

Yes, they (eventually) tried to remedy the problems. With the prototype flying in late 1939, I wonder if a simplified version as above could have been operational by say 1941?

Something like this*...



*Hacked about from a drawing at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177_Greif

[rickshaw]

You'd need to lengthen the fuselage and your engines are too wideset.   

[zenrat]

According to Wikipedia the French completed and used two He-274s after the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_274

[PR19_Kit]

According to Wikipedia the French completed and used two He-274s after the war.

Oh yes, they used them to launch the early Leduc ramjets, didn't they?

[The Rat]

According to Wikipedia the French completed and used two He-274s after the war.

Oh yes, they used them to launch the early Leduc ramjets, didn't they?

I think you may be correct.

[jcf]

According to Wikipedia the French completed and used two He-274s after the war.

Oh yes, they used them to launch the early Leduc ramjets, didn't they?

The 274 was considered, but all test flights were conducted with the SE.161 Languedoc. The 274 was used to carry the unpowered M.1 developmental prototype for SO.4000 jet bomber. However the free-flight tests of the M.1 all used the SE.161.

[The Rat]

According to Wikipedia the French completed and used two He-274s after the war.

Oh yes, they used them to launch the early Leduc ramjets, didn't they?

The 274 was considered, but all test flights were conducted with the SE.161 Languedoc. The 274 was used to carry the unpowered M.1 developmental prototype for SO.4000 jet bomber. However the free-flight tests of the M.1 all used the SE.161.

Okay, knew I had seen something. I was close, but no cigar.

[jcf]

IIRC Ernst Heinkel was very keen on such an aircraft but Hitler and/or the Luftwaffe high-ups forbade it. He built it anyway to prove his point, but that only served to make SURE it was never authorised for production.

Or so goes the old story, except that RLM documents show the authorization of the high altitude He-177H (became He-274),
the He-277 (became the Heinkel Amerika Bomber competitor) and the He-177B, all three featuring four engines. Heinkel did
not work on any of them "without authorization". Göring himself hated the twinned engines of the He-177A and had wanted
an actual four-engined bomber, evidently he was surprised that what he had thought was a four-engined bomber only had two.
Udet was mainly responsible for the He-177 as it was designed and built. The dive-bombing requirement, originally it was to
be low-angle glide-bombing, was also the work of Udet and company, not Hitler as has been claimed in the past.

In 1938 Heinkel had requested that two of the under construction prototypes be completed as four engined aircraft with Jumo 211 engines. He was turned down at
that time, but as the actual documents have shown that was a temporary set back.

[jcf]

Didn't they build one like that, with four separate engines I mean?

Checking on the Net says they did, it was the He-274 and for some reason it was built in France. 

Four four-engined He-177B prototypes were constructed.
https://sites.google.com/site/heinkel277/home/he-177b

The He-274 work was done at the Farman facilities because they were
available, large enough and not being used, unlike the situation in
Germany.