Re. TSR.2 'interceptors' ...

[TsrJoe]

a repost...

aaarrrggghhh...ive just found some more 'serious' TSR.2 related discussion and articles on the net which mention a ... quote...

'proposed interceptor TSR.2 with Falcon and Sparrow missiles for the Canadians as a replacement for their ill fated CF.105'

and see also...Wings of Fame, Volume 4 page 131...quote...

'At one stage BAC did propose an AAM. equipped version of the TSR.2 for the CAF. to serve as a long range interceptor after Canada's own CF.105 was cancelled. This version would have carried a mix of Sparrow and Falcon missilesand there id no doubt Sidewinder AAMs could have been easily integrated.'

... as ive posted before (and here yet again !) ...i reckon this is totally bs.. i nor any of my fellow TSR.2 obsessed colleagues can find any official source material for this one, or indeed any 'officially' proposed interceptor variant of TSR.2.

I have no problems with 'what if' hypotheses with relation to speculative developments of any aircraft (and i would be the first to support anyone doing so with the TSR.2!) but as we all know only too well if a factual error is repeated often enough in presented research it soon becomes a self referencing fact ... and as all of the original people involved with the aircraft back in the 60's are reaching that certain age i feel it is important that the core source information remains verified and uncorrupted as in very few years indeed such erronious suppositions may prove to be impossible to refute!

I recall asking a few chaps years ago who would definately have known if such a thing was actually proposed (a similar variant was speculativly mentioned in the 1976 RAF. yearbook!) to which this drew a complete blank, and after a lecture at the Yorkshire Air Museum few years back by Jim Dell and Bill Gunston i distinctly recall asking the above noted pieces author as to its attributed source, to which the responce was 'id heard it during some of the private press briefings on the aircraft whilst i was working as a correspondant for Interavia' ...sorry Bill but...

The earliest air defence TSR.2 reference i have on file is from the hypothetical article by Derek Wood, of Project Cancelled fame, in the infamous 1976 RAF. yearbook, in a piece called 'Wings clipped and cancelled' (which was itself taken from the speculative piece in the then current 2nd edition of 'Project Cancelled')

...just a thought following the above...the dates dont seem to tie in either...cancellation of the CF.105 in 1959 was way before the TSR.2 was even at design finalisation stages...hmmm...!

sorry for ranting like a jmn. on this one but as you can probably guess this is a subject on which i feel particularly strong about, especialy as i have spent way more years than i care to recall researching our favourite 'pheonix'

cheers, joe  

ps. having said all that...id be more than happy to be proven wrong...!

the follow up to the original post can be found here...

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index...2106&hl=gunston

[elmayerle]

And I'll stand by my comments to your original post, Joe.   That has to be someone's wishful thinking.

The possibility of going the other way that Randall WHitcomb repeorted, of an Arrow variant that would meet both GOR.329 and GOR.339 is rather more intriguing.

[Radish]

So, no Red Arrows TSR2 then.

[P1127]

First edition of Projet Cancelled had a ADV TSR2 in Woods' 1970s 'What If' senario.

IIRC it was based on the idea that the RAF would have needed a new interceptor in the 70s and a conversion of their low-level strike aircraft would provide a great long range interceptor (Yeah, like that would happen   )

Can't recall if that one mentioned swing wings or not, but that first issue of PC would have been early-mid 70s?

[TsrJoe]

... as an aside to the speculation of a possible Canadian 'fighter' TSR.2, there was however official interest shown in the aircraft in the TACTICAL STRIKE role to fulfil a requirement within the RCAF. (and indeed NATO.) for such a type, the TSR.2 being Canada's preferred choice ! (i guess the decision was made to cancel the requirement or dual role the CF.104's instead ?)


cheers, Joe  

[Zen]

Several of the GOR.339 brochures mention fighter versions of the offerings.

DH's GOR.339
Avro's 739
Hawker's P1121, P1123, P1125, P1129.
Bristol's Type 204
EE's P22
Glosters is actualy a variant of the 'thin wing' Javelin anway.
Vickers machine does'nt seem to be and I suspect its primeraly due to the small nose.

They would substitute the TFR kit and or the small forward set for a large AI radar set. Most had very good rates of climb and high ceilings that would make them useful from the interception point of view.

DH's offering was even offered as a carrier capable variant I think.

EE's and Avro's machines are probable the best options.

LAter on HSA made an offering that could have performed the fighter misssion.

Then in late '57 there was the OR.346 calling for a RN and RAF machine able to do the TSR.2 mission but also have 30% of its capability as a fighter, a 4 hour CAP was mentioned I think along with a preference for a 36 inch dish.
Offerings from BAC and HSA.

Later this was replaced by AW.406  (1962) to be able to destroy a mach 2.5 target at 65,000ft, and low level targets, use a new AAM to GDA.103, and carry 8,000lb of stores including the WE.177, top speed to be mach 2 at the topopause, and wieght to not exceed 40,000lb.
with options being
Variants of the Lightning
Vickers Type 583 and 583v
Hawkers P1150, P1154 single engine, P1154 twin engine.