Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir

[Sauragnmon]

Hmm, a Spey-rage would look quite interesting, with the smooth-backed exhaust look, and the fuel efficiency would have been good for the power, definately quite an interesting design difference.

[GTX]

I wondered what a Mirage III would look like with an Entendard wing:



Regards,

Greg

[Jschmus]

Twice during the 1980s and early 1990s, Kfirs were supplied to the US Navy and Marine Corps for dissimilar air combat training.  Does anyone know if the aircraft were supplied with functional 30mm cannon?

[rallymodeller]

Twice during the 1980s and early 1990s, Kfirs were supplied to the US Navy and Marine Corps for dissimilar air combat training.  Does anyone know if the aircraft were supplied with functional 30mm cannon?

AFAIK they were fully functional aircraft, with working weapons and weapons-delivery systems. I believe the USN did some weapons testing with them as well. Now I'm thinking about a Kfir C.2 in USNTPS colours...

[Scooterman]

If you're going to do that, why not a TC.2 double cab?

[MAD]

Incidentally, while I was working on Mirages at Williamtown in 1980 a team from IAI came out here to survey our remaining Mirages for suitability for upgrading to near Kfir standard with canards and new radar and other avionics. They estimated they could do this upgrade for about AM$1 per aircraft which wouold have given us a much more capable aircraft than we had and could have prolonged the Mirage's life with the RAAF. As per usual with conservative governments of that time the kind offer was turned down although the RAAF were very enthusiastic about it.

Cheers,
Ross. 

Regreatably, I missed this 
Interesting 

M.A.D

[MAD]

Ross,

That's interesting - I hadn't heard of that one before.   Given the state the Gov't was in and the fact that the TFF Project was well underway (Hornet orders were placed in 1981), I'm not surprised it wasn't pursued.  Did the proposal also involve engine changes or was it simply radar/avionics + canards?  If not, I guess we might have ended up with something like an Atlas Cheetah:



Regards,

Greg

And missed this 

What I think could have been interesting, is that if the RAAF (and Government!) had of elected to pursue a Kfirised Mirage IIIEO upgrade, at a cost effective $1 million per aircraft and say 8-10 years more service life............
This would have allowed the TFF Project to be held off, until the technologies of the likes of the 'ultra new' and 'ultra modern' 3rd gen fighters like the Mirage 2000, F/A-18 Hornet and the F-16 Fighting Falcon would have been more operationally mature - hence less risk and headaches to the RAAF!
The other interesting fact I am delving into, is that if the TFF Project had of been put off longer (not unrealistic!!), the likes of the F-16 would have acquired an effective BVR air-to-air capability in the form of the 'F-16C' (better radar and Aim-120 AMRAAM capability). After all from what I have read, it was the BVR capability of the F/A-1A/B Hornet, which was one of the principle factors that steered the RAAF towards the acquisition of the Hornet!
Oh and the early issues with the Pratt and Whitney F100 engine would have been rectified!!

Hmmmm BVR capability, at a better price = a greater number of F-16's to that of F/A-18A/B in RAAF service 

M.A.D

[Maverick]

Rob, it was a bit more than that. 

Supposedly, the Government of the day were iffy because of the alleged poor relationship with General Dynamics because of the F-111 (GD being the original producer) and there was also the kerfuffle about 'twin engined reliability'.  Mind you, the Hornet's engines were definitely an unknown quantity, whilst the Falcon's were at least a little more operationally mature.  The issue of buying a carrier equipped aircraft is perhaps the most unusual, although others have said that's because they were 'cheaper' than buying the land-optimised -18L.

Regards,

Mav

[rallymodeller]

Rob, it was a bit more than that. 

Supposedly, the Government of the day were iffy because of the alleged poor relationship with General Dynamics because of the F-111 (GD being the original producer) and there was also the kerfuffle about 'twin engined reliability'.  Mind you, the Hornet's engines were definitely an unknown quantity, whilst the Falcon's were at least a little more operationally mature.  The issue of buying a carrier equipped aircraft is perhaps the most unusual, although others have said that's because they were 'cheaper' than buying the land-optimised -18L.

Regards,

Mav

The latter was one of the defining factors in Canada choosing the Hornet. The -18L was looked at but with the economies of scale that went along with the USN purchase the regular F/A-18L was actually cheaper than the land-only version, even taking into consideration the modifications that were made (swapping the ACLS for standard ILS, the searchlight and so on). The -18L was also something of an unknown quantity at the time, being neither F-17 nor F-18, but having elements of both and it was not known how well it would have worked. In the end the CF188s turned out to be an excellent choice for Canada (despite the range issue) and after being upgraded to C+ standard (IHIP).

[Gondor]

Twice during the 1980s and early 1990s, Kfirs were supplied to the US Navy and Marine Corps for dissimilar air combat training.  Does anyone know if the aircraft were supplied with functional 30mm cannon?

Actually the aircraft supplied had their cannons deleted. There are pictures of this on page 67 of IAI Kfir in IAF service (Aircraft In Detail 3) by Ra'anan Weiss & Shlomo Aloni Published by Isra Decal Publications. Not much information there but I have faith in the source.

Gondor

[GTX]

Photo of Kfir's with Cannon (circled):




Photo of F-21A without cannon (circled):



Regards,

Greg

[Weaver]

Couple of points Greg:

Firstly, those are photos of Kfirs with cannon ports: you can't actually tell if there's a gun inside the bay or not.

Secondly, the question was about the USMC/USAF F-21s used for DACT. The first picture is definately NOT an F-21 because it has full-size canards (the F-21 was based on the C1). You can't discern markings on it, but there's an Ecuadorean or Columbian flag flying in the bakground. The second picture is definately either Columbian or Ecuadorian (their tail flashes are near-identical) and has an upgrade nose that the F-21s never had. Only the third pic looks like it might be an F-21.

[Gondor]

Oooooooo Columbian C-10's 

Gondor

[GTX]

Couple of points Greg:

Firstly, those are photos of Kfirs with cannon ports: you can't actually tell if there's a gun inside the bay or not.

Secondly, the question was about the USMC/USAF F-21s used for DACT. The first picture is definately NOT an F-21 because it has full-size canards (the F-21 was based on the C1). You can't discern markings on it, but there's an Ecuadorean or Columbian flag flying in the bakground. The second picture is definately either Columbian or Ecuadorian (their tail flashes are near-identical) and has an upgrade nose that the F-21s never had. Only the third pic looks like it might be an F-21.

I know what was asked and my reply is still valid.

Did I say the first pictures were F-21s?  NO! That is why I called them Kfirs (in fact the second is an updated C.10 variant from Colombia if you want to be exact). I was using them to simply show what one should be looking for when looking for cannons on a Kfir (or variant thereof).  

The final picture is however a F-21 and as you will see there are no cannon ports - hence no cannons!

Greg

[Weaver]

Couple of points Greg:

Firstly, those are photos of Kfirs with cannon ports: you can't actually tell if there's a gun inside the bay or not.

Secondly, the question was about the USMC/USAF F-21s used for DACT. The first picture is definately NOT an F-21 because it has full-size canards (the F-21 was based on the C1). You can't discern markings on it, but there's an Ecuadorean or Columbian flag flying in the bakground. The second picture is definately either Columbian or Ecuadorian (their tail flashes are near-identical) and has an upgrade nose that the F-21s never had. Only the third pic looks like it might be an F-21.

I know what was asked and my reply is still valid.

Did I say the first pictures were F-21s?  NO! That is why I called them Kfirs (in fact the second is an updated C.10 variant from Colombia if you want to be exact). I was using them to simply show what one should be looking for when looking for cannons on a Kfir (or variant thereof).  

The final picture is however a F-21 and as you will see there are no cannon ports - hence no cannons!

Greg

Okay, fair enough - my apologies.