Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir

[GTX]

No worries

Regards,

Greg

[Green Dragon]

Remember reading in one of the monthly magazines (Air International?) that the F-21A's had the guns removed and often wondered if it altered the CofG much or if they fitted ballast weights?

Paul Harrison

[Jschmus]

Thank you to all who answered.  I was simply looking at doing the old Testors F-21A as a simple whiff, painting it up in 1980s-style colors and armed like an active-duty machine.  I was thinking of a scenario featuring the Russians involved in some mischief off the East Coast, and VF-43 being the only active unit nearby or something to that effect.

[pyro-manic]

Remember reading in one of the monthly magazines (Air International?) that the F-21A's had the guns removed and often wondered if it altered the CofG much or if they fitted ballast weights?

Paul Harrison

A DEFA weighs 85kg (according to wiki), so I would imagine losing a pair of them would make a slight difference. Having said that, the guns are mounted fairly centrally on the aircraft, so perhaps it wouldn't matter that much?

[Jschmus]

Taking my previous notion of the F-21s being fitted out for combat, with the DEFA cannons removed, could any of the Navy's existing cannons be used to substitute with minimal change?  I'm not suggesting anything likw the M61 (that would require a rebuild at the least), but could the (admittedly elderly) Mk 12 guns from an A-4 (still in use by VFC-12 at the time) or the M39s used by the F-5 be fitted in their place?

[GTX]

Taking my previous notion of the F-21s being fitted out for combat, with the DEFA cannons removed, could any of the Navy's existing cannons be used to substitute with minimal change?  I'm not suggesting anything likw the M61 (that would require a rebuild at the least), but could the (admittedly elderly) Mk 12 guns from an A-4 (still in use by VFC-12 at the time) or the M39s used by the F-5 be fitted in their place?

If you were in a rush and needed cannon, then maybe a podded version would be best.

Regards,

Greg

[pyro-manic]

It would depend on what else had been done other than removing the actual guns, but AFAIK the USMC's AV-8A/C Harriers were armed with ADEN cannons, which are very similar to the DEFAs fitted to the Mirage family. Could spares from the Harriers be used as a drop-in replacement for the DEFAs?

[rickshaw]

Similar does not mean identical.  I suspect the mounts would be quite different and knowing the British idea on electrical systems, wildly different to the French (or vice-a-versa).    Adapters for the mounts might be possible but space might be at a premium in the gun bays.  Then you have problems with ammunition feeds, ejector ports and so on.  Might be easier to remove the guns and use a podded installation in their place.  It would certainly be quicker!

[dy031101]

Isn't the only they have in common being the ammunition?

[Maverick]

There'd also be the issue that the ADENs would most likely be in Imperial measurements whilst the DEFAs would be metric.  Both weapons are based on the MG213C but I suspect there are significant differences that wouldn't allow a 'drop-in drop-out' design.  Their commonality is limited, I suspect, to the ammunition which by all accounts is interchangeable.

Regards,

Mav

[Jschmus]

Another obstacle to the Harrier gun swap is that no Harriers have ever been based in the vicinity of NAS Oceana.  The nearest Marine post with a Harrier squadron at the time was MCAS Cherry Point, a couple of hours flight time away in NC.  I guess I'm stuck with the Kfirs as quick-reaction day fighters with AIM-9L.  No biggie.

[rickshaw]

They may have the guns in storage as part of what we called in the Australian Army the "CES" - Complete Equipment Schedule - all items which were assigned to a particular piece of equipment to make it work.  The guns could have been purchased with the aircraft as part of the CES and then removed by the armourers and stored on the base.  Returning them to the aircraft would be a case of simply remounting them and connecting the electrics.  Then all that would be needed would be the ammunition.  As to whether or not they would carry large stocks of that when they normally don't use the guns is another matter.

[Mossie]

There's always the old 'make do & mend' method.  If it's an emergency requirement & the ADENs are all you've got, break out the drills, the hammers & sticky tape & make the buggers fit.

[rallymodeller]

There's always the old 'make do & mend' method.  If it's an emergency requirement & the ADENs are all you've got, break out the drills, the hammers & sticky tape & make the buggers fit.

That's how the Israelis fitted DEFAs to Skyhawks...

It'd probably be easiest to bolt in some Mk. 12s; the Navy's probably got piles of them lying around what with them being basically standard fit for USN aircraft up until the Tomcat. 

[GTX]

I still wouldn't rule out a gun pod as per the picture below:



Maybe something such as a SUU-23/A as used by the USN Phantoms - might even be able to say some old ones were available - on the centreline station.

Regards,

Greg