Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir

Daryl J. · April 22, 2006, 11:48:20 PM

As a sub-thread to UK-75's RAF-whatiffery and follow on to Radish' suggestion of Spey-engined Mirages:

Mirage III: Would the intakes need to be significantly enlarged to feed the air-drinking Spey? How about the tail-pipe area?

Having the requisite parts in both the Heller Mirage III and the Rev/Germ Spey engined Phantom it would be a fun kit to do.

Or....even the Mirage IV..................

Thanks in advance,
Daryl J., ever seeking information

seavixen · April 23, 2006, 04:46:43 AM

The Phantoms certainly had their intakes enlarged for use with the Spey. Would look kinda cool to put some larger sucky holes onto the Mirage!

Archibald · April 23, 2006, 05:07:09 AM

These two projects are not pure whatifs : they were named Mirage IIIK and
Mirage IV*. The Mirage IVK was proosed as TSR-2 replacement in 1965 and seriously taken in consideration by Dassault and Rolls Royce (but not by the British governement lol)
I don't know it which context the Mirage IIIK was proposed to Great Britain... was it a Phantom competitor for the RAF in 1965?

P1127 · April 23, 2006, 07:53:13 AM

If the Mirage needed an enlarged rear fuselage etc for the J79 (Kfir) then I'd imagine aspey would need the sdame

SimonR · April 24, 2006, 12:25:23 AM

If we're making big mouthed, fat bottomed Mirages how about an Olympus engined variant instead a Spey? 33,000lbs vs 21,000lbs thrust.

Zen · April 24, 2006, 04:59:25 AM

Olympus is a bit bigger than a Spey, you'd need to increase the size of the plane to handle it.

Spey is shorter than a J79, which in turn is I understand shorter than a Atar.
That could make for some trouble, as the Kfir had a shorter rear end as it was than a Atar engined Mirage.

Archibald · April 25, 2006, 03:49:33 AM

Mirage IIIT had aTF-30 turbofan, and flew in 1964. The TF-30 was too big, and there was too many compressor stall (air intakes were too small). The IIIT was only a testbed for the TF-104/106/306 engines. These engines were used on the Mirage F2/F3, G, and IIIV

elmayerle · April 25, 2006, 10:34:35 PM

Well, the TF30 had a somewhat higher mass flow, as I remember, than the Spey 200 series engines as used in the British Phantoms so there might not be a problem there (I'd need to know more engine airflow requirements than I do). If the Mirage IIIT inlets were enlarged to cope with the TF30, the same inlets could also handle a TF41.

Joeisamonkey · May 17, 2006, 11:41:16 AM

Hey Fellas,

Like I said bored at work (it was just before the platoon sgt had me doing push-ups, or press-up for those of you on the other side of the pond, for being bored at work) and I was reading an article published by dassault about the history of the Mirage III program (I didn't read it that deeply to find out when it was published). The guy was discussing how if only the Germans were inpressed by the Mirage IIIA then maybe they would have gone into the development of the Mirage IIIC and Dassault would have become a German/French company. How cool was that. So I Started thinking (holy crap it hurt), and building (later that night after my arms felt better) I started work on an Academy Mirage IIIC that is gonna be in Luftwaffe markings with that cool green splinter camo (oh that kit sucks and I am having to do alot more scratch building then I wanted) (I wanted to use a ESCI kit for the German Mirage but that it going to a Canadian Forces Europe one that is not yet in progress but I just bought a eduard zoom kit for.) Buttttttt... oh lets think... what about a Mirage IIIE or V in that really cool two or three toned grey camo of the F-4E of present. Or some of the other camo schemes. Oh my boys (and girls?)... Discuss.

(and discuss the fact that I seem to really like parenthesis. What's up with that. and how I write Intelligence reports but can't spell or find the spell checker on this computer.)

Take care,

JoeW

Don't worry I am still building tanks, this is just a short detour.

PolluxDeltaSeven · May 17, 2006, 11:44:38 AM

Hum... Mirage III instead of F-104G ??
I LOVE THIS IDEA!!!

Just imagine a Mirage III in German Navy markings

upnorth · May 17, 2006, 12:16:30 PM

QuoteHum... Mirage III instead of F-104G ??
I LOVE THIS IDEA!!!

Just imagine a Mirage III in German Navy markings

Yeah, the Mirage three can be in the old solid grey over white scheme.

Eventually the Mirage III will give way to the Mirage 2000 in Germany navy service and you can do it in that three tone basalt grey wraparound camo their Tornados currently wear. Mirage 2000 with Kormorans

PolluxDeltaSeven · May 17, 2006, 02:16:23 PM

QuoteYeah, the Mirage three can be in the old solid grey over white scheme.

Et hop!!
Just said, just done!!

Okay, it's not a very good profile: I did it very quickly, but well, it give you an idea... The bad thing is that it's a Mirage IIIE and I really don't like the nose of this variant, but I didn't find a profile of another version...

But we could already imagine Mirage v and Mirage IIIE for the Luftwaffe and Mirage IIIE and Mirage IIIG (in my mind a better variant of the Mirage IIIS swiss) for the Marineflieger!

After that, I could see german forces equiped with Mirage 2000E (instead of the F-4 and to complete the Tornados) and Tornado IDS/ECR for the Luftwaffe and the same thing for the Marine.

Radish · May 17, 2006, 02:18:42 PM

Joe, see if you can get the Italeri IIIE....it's the ESCI kit with all the weapons sprues and a fantastic decal sheet....super to build too.

Like the idea of a Luftwaffe one.
I've a Mirage with a very long Concorde type nose, sloped and pointing down, on the bench as we speak....but it's been there for nearly 12 months now. Ought to get it done.

GTX · May 17, 2006, 02:56:37 PM

PolluxDeltaSeven,

Very nice - the dark grey looks wicked. I can see this thing screaming low over the water carrying a maybe a Komoran ASM on the centre line plus a couple of gas bags and sidewinders.

Regards,

Greg

Hobbes · May 18, 2006, 04:40:19 AM

An MBB/Dassault merger would be fun, but not very productive, I fear

Still, if they'd been able to make it work, we'd have had a winner: a company backed by two of Europe's biggest economies, building aircraft not just for French requirements, but usable by most of Europe's air forces. Real competition for the Americans. No F-104 and F-16, but European aircraft built by the thousands.
European stealth aircraft by the early 1990s. A European equivalent to the B-1, replacing the Mirage IV and TSR.2 using lessons learned from both and e.g. the Concorde program.
The possibilities are endless. B)