Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir

[dy031101]

So that was why the Avon-powered Mirage III didn't fly into service...... hostility between Rolls-Royce and RAAF?

I've been always wondering what the reason might be ever since I, then in elementary school, read about it on a magazine......

The Mirage series was directly inspired by the Fairey Delta II, just we did nothing with it.

Fairey probably should have put the Red Hebe AAM on their F.155T Delta II entry......

[Weaver]

And mores the pity, we built the Mirage first.  The Mirage series was directly inspired by the Fairey Delta II, just we did nothing with it.

Mmmmm.... yes and no. There were a lot of deltas around at the time and the Mirage I was already in existance when the FD2 went to Istres, so the charge of "copying" that's sometimes levelled at Dassault isn't really fair. On the other hand, they certainly watched the FD2 trials with intense interest, and it's probably fair to say that it encouraged them to go down the delta route, rather than opting for something safer and less radical.

It's crazy that the FD2 wasn't developed into a proper fighter, given the performance and success of broadly similar aircraft like the Mirage and Draken. Speed was the primary thing by which fighters were judged in those days and the FD2 was MUCH faster than it's design predictions! Imagine a scaled-up version based around that RR Avon follow-on (Rb.166 Thames?) that "contributed" to the Iroquois......

[Weaver]

So that was why the Avon-powered Mirage III didn't fly into service...... hostility between Rolls-Royce and RAAF?

I've been always wondering what the reason might be ever since I, then in elementary school, read about it on a magazine......

Well partly, but like most of these things, the reasons were complex. Here's what I can make out:

1. The RAAF's unhappy experience with the Avon Sabre had certainly soured relations between them and RR.

2. Dassault, who had initially supported the Avon trials, suddenly got a bout of nationalism, refused to cough up company funding for the stage 2 trials (which is primarily why they didn't happen) and threw all their weight behind the Atar. RR went to the British government for funding, who, with their usual deathless commercial judgement, turned them down flatly  . The sight of the airframe and engine manufacturer and their respective governments starting to pull in opposite directions must have quite justifiably started alarm bells ringing for the RAAF.

3. A new government was elected in Australia who were more risk-averse than the previous one. Buying the standard aircraft with the standard engine looked like the safest way to avoid any possibility of the programme turning into a "nightmare" money pit.

[ElectrikBlue]

Dassault also made some tests of re-engined Mirage III!

To test the TF 106 engine of the Mirage III V, Dassault transformed a Mirage III into a flying test bed, the Mirage III T that flies on 25 January 1965. 

(SNECMA TF 106 was the french version of the Pratt & Whitney JTF 10, 7.5 tons of thrust with reheat)

EB

[Mossie]

And mores the pity, we built the Mirage first.  The Mirage series was directly inspired by the Fairey Delta II, just we did nothing with it.

Mmmmm.... yes and no. There were a lot of deltas around at the time and the Mirage I was already in existance when the FD2 went to Istres, so the charge of "copying" that's sometimes levelled at Dassault isn't really fair. On the other hand, they certainly watched the FD2 trials with intense interest, and it's probably fair to say that it encouraged them to go down the delta route, rather than opting for something safer and less radical.

It's crazy that the FD2 wasn't developed into a proper fighter, given the performance and success of broadly similar aircraft like the Mirage and Draken. Speed was the primary thing by which fighters were judged in those days and the FD2 was MUCH faster than it's design predictions! Imagine a scaled-up version based around that RR Avon follow-on (Rb.166 Thames?) that "contributed" to the Iroquois......

I'm not accusing Dassault of copying the FD.2, but it definately inspired the Mirage.  I can't remember the exact quote, but Marcel Dassault said that the British could have built the Mirage if it wasn't for the strange way we do things.  I think a developed FD.2 would have had great export potential, unlike the FD.3 which would have been lucky to get sales outside the UK.

[Weaver]

I'm not accusing Dassault of copying the FD.2, but it definately inspired the Mirage.  I can't remember the exact quote, but Marcel Dassault said that the British could have built the Mirage if it wasn't for the strange way we do things.  I think a developed FD.2 would have had great export potential, unlike the FD.3 which would have been lucky to get sales outside the UK.

Yeah I know you wern't: it's just something which often does get said though.

[Pegasus]

Hi Weaver,
I'm not too sure about the "new" government being one of the reasons for the Avon Mirage not going ahead. The "new" conservative (out here, Liberal Party) government had been elected in 1949 and via a succession of PMs had led until 1972. I'm also not sure about relations between the RAAF and RR being soured at any stage. We still had other RR engined aircraft which were successful, Canberra, Viscount, Meteor etc. I think the RAAF bit off more than it could chew at the time by requesting an Avon engined Sabre. There was one Avon engined Mirage built by Dassault to test the concept but the RAAF had already experienced the bitter saga with the Sabre and thus said, "Thank you, but no thank you," even though there werre far fewer modifications to be done to the Avon Mirage than to the Avon Sabre. Basically, what I'm saying is that the Sabre debacle was mainly the RAAF's fault and really nothing to do with RR.

Incidentally, while I was working on Mirages at Williamtown in 1980 a team from IAI came out here to survey our remaining Mirages for suitability for upgrading to near Kfir standard with canards and new radar and other avionics. They estimated they could do this upgrade for about AM$1 per aircraft which wouold have given us a much more capable aircraft than we had and could have prolonged the Mirage's life with the RAAF. As per usual with conservative governments of that time the kind offer was turned down although the RAAF were very enthusiastic about it.

Cheers,
Ross. 

[Radish]

Ohhhhhhhh boy.......some RAAF mods next then!!

[GTX]

ncidentally, while I was working on Mirages at Williamtown in 1980 a team from IAI came out here to survey our remaining Mirages for suitability for upgrading to near Kfir standard with canards and new radar and other avionics. They estimated they could do this upgrade for about AM$1 per aircraft which wouold have given us a much more capable aircraft than we had and could have prolonged the Mirage's life with the RAAF. As per usual with conservative governments of that time the kind offer was turned down although the RAAF were very enthusiastic about it.

Ross,

That's interesting - I hadn't heard of that one before.   Given the state the Gov't was in and the fact that the TFF Project was well underway (Hornet orders were placed in 1981), I'm not surprised it wasn't pursued.  Did the proposal also involve engine changes or was it simply radar/avionics + canards?  If not, I guess we might have ended up with something like an Atlas Cheetah:



Regards,

Greg

[ChernayaAkula]

^ Gorgeous! 

[Pegasus]

,
Hello GTX, I'm also not surprised that the IAI mods didn't go ahead but not for the same reasons as you. The F/A-18 announcement was made to service personnel in October 1981, the day after the decision had been made. I'll always remember the 2AD CO at the time, Gp Capt (Big Red) Redfern going around to each section and making the announcement personally. However in August 1973 I had read in Air Entusiast that a replacement decision would be made by October. They were right on the month, just 8 years out on the year. That was a long drawn out decision process, but a replacement for the F/A-18s we have now is likely to be an even longer one, given the overruns in the Wedgetail program and the cost increases in the JSF program. Incidentally, that deal hasn't yet been signed so anything is still possible there.

Cheers,
Ross.

[GTX]

,
Hello GTX, I'm also not surprised that the IAI mods didn't go ahead but not for the same reasons as you. The F/A-18 announcement was made to service personnel in October 1981, the day after the decision had been made. I'll always remember the 2AD CO at the time, Gp Capt (Big Red) Redfern going around to each section and making the announcement personally. However in August 1973 I had read in Air Entusiast that a replacement decision would be made by October. They were right on the month, just 8 years out on the year. That was a long drawn out decision process, but a replacement for the F/A-18s we have now is likely to be an even longer one, given the overruns in the Wedgetail program and the cost increases in the JSF program. Incidentally, that deal hasn't yet been signed so anything is still possible there.

Cheers,
Ross.

Yes, the TFF decision was drawn out one - for a while early , the Mirage F.1 was a strong candidate.

Re the Hornet replacement (i.e. the JSF), the decision is effectively to take place mid this year.

Regards,

Greg

[Pegasus]

,
Hi Greg,
Where have I heard that story before. We've been "gunna" replace the Caribou since the early seventies. It ain't happened yet. lol! "They're" (being Their Airships) still thinking about it. "They" don't think very quickly do "they"?

Cheers,
Ross.

[GTX]

Actually, I have some inside knowledge on the JSF decision, so am quite confident on the timing .

Regards,

Greg

[B777LR]

You guys may want to take interest in these Mirage III profiles i did once: