Gloster Thin Wing Javelin...

[Archibald]

Most people know the Delta III and CF-105 Arrow and there was many threads and models about these fantastic planes.
Another impressive project of the same era (1955-1958) was the Gloster thin wing Javelin.
This project was created to fill the gap between the standard Javelin (subsonic) and the monstruous F-155T. It started as the Gloster P.356 mach1.05 fighter and ended as the mach 1.8 P.384 . New missiles were created for this impressive bird (Red Dean, 600kg and 5 meters long!).
aparently one prototype of the transonic version was started (XG.336) but never completed because of the CF-105 vastly superior performances.
The Thin Wing Javelin was bigger as the Arrow or Delta III; Olympus 7 engines (12 tons of thrust!) replaced the Sapphires. Wing area was more than 100 square meters!  
I have some questions about this plane
- was the XG.336 scrapped (the program ended in march 1956)
- what career for the TW Javelin in the 60's?
- why were the red dean and red hebe so big compared to R-530 or AIM-7 sparrows?
Last thing : there's a3-view of the TW Javelin in BSP. Would it be possible to slaughter a 1/72 Javelin to change it in TW Javelin?  (a job for Thorvic! He changed a Mirage IV into a Delta III and a Su-15 into a Gruman F-12F    ^_^     )
Just imagine a Delta III, TW Javelin and CF-105 side by side...

[MartG]

why were the red dean and red hebe so big compared to R-530 or AIM-7 sparrows?

Active radar homing with early 1950s technology  

[Geoff_B]

why were the red dean and red hebe so big compared to R-530 or AIM-7 sparrows?

Active radar homing with early 1950s technology

Sort of, i have a feeling Red Dean/Red Hebe had a fuller active radar guidance where as the smaller missiles were initially semi-active. Plus the missile was intended for high altitude longer range work in intercepting bombers.

As for Building a TWJ i did look at the drawings recently and compared the drawings to the model of a Javelin. Alot would be needed to be changed the main fuselage bsing much longer, new squarer intakes as opposed to the round ones, a new larger and thinner delta wing and a new longer nose and fwd fusealge. In fact the only part that appeared unchanged was the Tailplane !!!!!!!!.

Cheers

Geoff B  

[upnorth]

They didn't change the tailplane?!

I'll admit to total ignorance of the TWJ, but did'nt they figure out not long after the Javelin went into service that the tailplane was not required?

[Archibald]

You mean that the Red Dean and Red Hebe have active radar homing like an AMRAAM???!!!!! impressive achievement for the 50's... That also means that the Red Dean was more advanced than the Skyflash (Semi-active homing )
If I understand well having a TW Javelin model would mean
- building it from scratch
- Lobbying hard Anigrand
Such a pity...
Waiting for a model, I wrote a short backstory...
Gloster thin wing Javelin.
In march 1956 the RAF decided to keep on with the TW Javelin. To achieve that, QRA fighters programs such as the SR-177 and Lightning were sacrified, particularly the SR-177. Production of the standard Javelin was cut to the bones, because this plane was now clearly obsolete. The XG-336 prototype of the TW Javelin was now only used for trials; it no longer corresponded to the RAF performances standard. The production plane would be the P.384, with powerfull Olympus engines and Red Dean missiles. To reduce drag, these huge missiles would be recessed under the fuselage. This allowed to use the wing pylons for four Firestreak or two drop tanks. More,this cut drag and improved performances a lot. When the F-155T program was scrapped because it was too expensive (after the flight of the first FD-III in 1962) the thin wing Javelin stay in service. It was named Super Javelin, and prove to be a powerful and reliable machine. First flight of the (unuseful) XG.336 occured in december 1958, and the Super Javelin flew in February 1960. At the time, the CF-105 Arrow had beaten  records (speed and height) reaching mach 2.56 and
105000 fts with Woodman and Potoki at the controls. American attempts to break these records with F-104s, F-106s and even Phantoms failed, proving the vast superiority of the canadian interceptor. The Super Javelin prototype managed to break the height record in june 1960, reaching 108.000fts. When the FD-3 prototype flew in june 1961 it quickly broke many records (whithout rockets!) reaching a speed of mach 2.68 and a height of 115000fts. The CF-105 manage to take the height record a third time, reaching 123 000 fts, at the edge of space!
In december 1956, defence minister Duncan Sandys has died in its bathroom after sliding on its soap, crashing against a wall after that. Its successors discovered astonished  its plan to replace manned fighters by missiles, and discretly burnt the paper before it reachs the commons. Thin Wing Javelin and F-155T projects keep on, along with the Lightning. The 730 bomber was cancelled, and replaced by a pure mach3 recon aircraft (the EE P.10 was back!).
In 1961 when many super Javelin had been produced Gloster, now part of HSA intented to change its plane into a powerfull fighter bomber. Despite an enormous wing area, the plane proved a good air-to-ground weapon platform. This was due to a lot of room available underwings, and the power of the two olympus engines. An enormous bomb load could be carried on 9 bombs racks under the wings. An big conformal tank was fitted on the centerline of the plane, boosting range to 700NM in Hi-lo-hi missions. The plane was considered as an alternative to the "pure" light bombers (Mirage IV, Vigilante, F-111 and TSR-2) by Australia, along with the Phantom and CF-105. One of the Super Javelin sent to Malaisia in 1963 went to Australia to demonstrate the performances of the machine.
At the time, the FD-3 prototype was breaking some heights, climb and speed records, beating the CF-105 in the process. 5 squadrons of the RCAF in Europe had changed their CF-100 to Arrows in 1961. In one occasion, Super Javelins of the 56sq were send to Marville in France were they encountered the Arrows there. Then, the FD-3 prototype landed on the base, it was on road to a world tour; Fairey tried to promote the plane worlwide, hoping foreign export customers for its fantastic machine. It joined the Arrows and Super Javelins parked on the runway on sunset... Later, the Super Javelin was fitted with a Scorpion rocket to boost its ceiling up to 85000fts.

[MartG]

In december 1956, defence minister Duncan Sandys has died in its bathroom after sliding on its soap, crashing against a wall after that. Its successors discovered astonished  its plan to replace manned fighters by missiles, and discretly burnt the paper before it reachs the commons.

Aaah, if only....... ( though I wouldn't really wish someone dead   )

[Archibald]

Me too... I'm not particularly keen on murdering people (I suppose this poor Sandys had a family... so next time I'll just "hurt" him not too severely). In every case, the aim is to avoid this man stay at the defense ministry (to save some interesting project and the British aircraft industry).  

[MartG]

I suppose this poor Sandys had a family...

Married to Winston Churchill's daughter, though they divorced in 1960.

Wonder what his father-in-law thought of his policies  

[Archibald]

That's really incredible...the father in law saved Great Britain in 1940, the husband of its daughter....kill british aircraft industry twenty years later. Sometimes history sounds weird      

[Geoff_B]

Vickers Red Dean

Yeap Red Dean was active radar although of an early type, its replacement Red Hebe and the Blue Dolphin (Radar guided Red Top) were only semi-active.

TWJ was just an attempt to prolong the Javelin production line untill the F-155T program came into service in the late 60's with the FD-3. It was a much wiser choice killing off the TWJ and going instead with the Avro Arrow as it would be in service quicker and provide a better stop gap till the FD-3  was ready.

G

[Archibald]

According to Tony Buttler things were more complex : the thin wing Javelin was an interim all weather fighter to enter service in 1959, waiting for the Fairey Delta III in 1962. It was to be only transonic (mach 1.05).
The project was killed when Great Britain heard about the F-101 (mach 1. and CF-105 studies ( mach2.5!) in december 1955.
They tried to improved the TW Javelin by giving it more power (olympus 7, 12 tons of thrust) but even with that its top speed was only mach 1.82. Othger problem was the prototype in construction (XG-336) was of the transonic version, not the supersonic, delaying even more the program.
The RAF really wanted the CF-105 but this plane would not enter service before 1961... too late compared to the FD-3 (1962-63). So it would not have been bought, even whithout the sandys storm...
The Lightning could not be a stopgap (it was not all weather at the time) so finally the SR-177 would have filled the gap.
Of course, all of this was destroyed by the Sandystorm...
What I don't understand is why the Red Hebe was as big as the Red Dean if it was only a Semi-active homing missile?  

[Zen]

Red Dean and the later Red Hebe where designed to intercept aircraft flying higher than the launch aircraft.
Of the latter it was supposed to switch from SARH to ARH in for the last 4nm or so and down a target flying some 7,500ft higher than the launch aircraft. Guidance would be the AI.18 with modifications for illumination of a target, probably a seperate illuminator as on the earlier Red Dean/AI.18 system.
Range of the Red Hebe was probably over 40nm.

Both missiles where in the 1,300lb weight range, over 16ft long and I think about 1ft in diameter. This reflects the state of british electronics and they found it damn near impossible to actualy make the thing work on a bench test let alone queeze it into the missile. The hardest part was the switch from SARH to ARH, had they dropped the ARH part its quite possible the weapon would be achieved.
On a related note under pressure from the aircraft manufacturers a scaled Red Hebe was at least looked at on paper, this being about 650lb. ITs highly likely the AAM's shown on the picture of the P1103 model in Tony Butlers book is that weapon which implies a 14ft length.

ROA for the fighter mission was over 200nm. but it was expected to intercept a bomber at 60,000ft some 70nm from base I think.

[Archibald]

Thanks for the infos Zen!
Reading in the previous post that the Red Dean was ARH, this remind the Arrow weapon Ie the Sparrow II. This was to be the Skylancer (and CF-105) missile.  Apparently the results were the same (the SARH was more practical).
It was tested on CF-100s (I really want to see some pictures of these planes) but abandonned in 1958.
So the Red Dean and Sparrow II were the first steps to the actual ARH missiles (AMRAAM, Mica.) ??

[MartG]

It was tested on CF-100s (I really want to see some pictures of these planes) but abandonned in 1958.

Hope you like these pics of missile test Clunks

[Archibald]

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