de Havilland Canada Caribou, Buffalo, Dash-7, and Dash-8

[Captain Canada]

Just found out about these guys. Looks like a nice kit. $65 US incl. postgae doesn't sound to bad either !

http://www.libertyquality.com.br/

[upnorth]

I'm not sure, it may just be an issue of the angle of the photo or something, but the finished model in the picture looks distinctly out of whack in certain places.

I can't figure out if the fuselage bulges out in the area where the wing joins on or if it gets noticably narrower toward the nose, but neither should be happening. the fuselage cross section was consistant from aft of the flight deck to the back door.

What I'd really like to see is a straight side on picture of the finished model's nose and cockpit area as it looks distinctly fishy in contour, too pointed, in the picture on the site.

Hopefully its just a photography issue and nothing's amiss with the actual model.

Sorry for being a JMN, but I've seen the Buffalo more than a few times and she's a pretty memorable bird.

[cc115]

Captain Canada

Good find. I've been awaiting the for the availibility of a kit of my first love, on which I was assigned right out of the Basic FE school in 1997. After 6 years and 1907.0 hours on type, I had to leave the big yellow beauty for the CC-130, as I was promoted.

To this day, they could demote me from Sgt to MCpl and put me back on the CC115 Buffalo anyday!!! Not to mention, the CF only flies them out of God's country. Comox, BC!!!!!!!! What a bonus.

Must run. Wife needs a ride.

[Captain Canada]

Comox, BC!!!!!!!!

My hometown !

Cool...we got a Buffalo pilot ! You know what we need for our SAR boys ? Spartans ? Nooooo. That Spanish crap ? Not at all ! Re-open the Buffalo production line !



Can't wait to see that bird fly again at the Thunder Over Michigan show

[GTX]

Hi folks,

Kind of related to this topic is the ongoing discussion within Australia of re-engining our DHC-4 Caribous with Turbo-props to turn them into quasi-Buffalos.  It has been done before as witnessed by these pictures (the engine in this case is a PWC PT6A turboprop):






The RAAF has been talking about replacing the Caribou for many decades now but can't seem to find something that offers the same capability (specifically the STOL capability)for a reasonable cost.

Regards,

Greg

[The Rat]

Kind of related to this topic is the ongoing discussion within Australia of re-engining our DHC-4 Caribous with Turbo-props to turn them into quasi-Buffalos.

Same thought has crossed my mind many times, and no doubt others here as well, but I didn't know it had been done. I say go for it!

And a planing hull with wing floats!

Okay, I'll get me coat...    

[Captain Canada]

Great pics, GTX....thanks for sharing ! Especially all the engine close-ups. I believe that place is in NJ.

As far as STOL goes, did anyone see that NOVA special about the guys trying to recover a B-29 from the Arctic ? There's some great Caribou footage in it. It suffers engine failure on take off, and the thing pretty much turns in the length of it's own fuselage and lands ! Fully loaded incl. a bulldozer ! The pilot ( who flew 'em in Vietnam ) said any other bird would have killed them.

[The Rat]

As far as STOl goes, did anyone see that NOVA special about the guys trying to recover a B-29 from the Arctic ?

I would love to see that! I'll check into the Nova web site later and see if it's on video or dvd, might be available at the library.

The Caribou is one of those planes whose only replacement is a newer one!    

[GTX]

The Caribou (and presumably Buffalo) is truly a  spectacular aircraft - watching it land in hardly any distance and then reversing up the runway is truly a sight to behold.  As I mentioned, the RAAF have considered replacing them for approximately 30 odd years.  Here is some more detailed information:

The formal search for a successor to the DHC-4 Caribou in RAAF service began in 1976 when the Government initiated a project development including an industry feasibility study. The purpose of the study was to obtain responses from manufacturers interested in development of an existing or new aircraft type to satisfy Australia's need for a tactical fixed-wing short range transport aircraft in the mid-1980s. The study received many responses from industry.

One of the leading contenders was the DHC-5 Buffalo designed as a STOL turboprop successor to the Caribou with a pressurised cabin sized for 463L pallets and bigger vehicles. The Buffalo was designed also to complement the Chinook and the two aircraft have similar cabin dimensions. The US Army did not acquire the Buffalo and instead standardised on the Chinook. With a takeoff weight of about 19 tonnes the Buffalo can lift a payload of 5.5 tonnes from a 300m rough airstrip. At 22 tonnes all-up, this increases to 8 tonnes from a 600m prepared airstrip. It also carries these loads faster, higher and further than the Caribou.

In late-1978 it was reported that the LTA study was being stopped due to pressure on the Defence budget and because no proposal fully satisfied the draft specification especially in regard to part-manufacture or assembly in Australia. Instead the Caribou life-of-type was to be extended and subject to fatigue studies the aircraft would continue in service into the late-1980s.

At some time in the late-1970s or early-1980s, the continuing study for a successor to the Caribou received the serial AIR 5190. During the 1980s it was reported that the Canadians would seek to provide refurbished DHC-5 Buffalos to succeed the Caribou, and new-build utility helicopters for project AIR 87 (troop lift component since moved) offset against acquisition of three or four Collins-class fleet submarines for their Navy. However this prospect evaporated due in part to development problems with the Collins-class. Also large expenditure was already committed or expected throughout the 1980s for acquisition of F/A-18 fighters, S-70A-9 helicopters and PC-9 trainers, and conversion of the 707-338s.

Advancing to mid-1997 the annual Defence budget and activity report papers recorded that ADF airlift resources had been heavily tasked during 1996-97, particularly the Caribou on international drought relief operations in Papua and Irian Jaya. They noted also that C-130 aircraft had underflown allocated training and support hours due to involvement in and standby for contingency operations. The same papers revealed that the flying cost per hour of the Blackhawks had been only marginally below that of the Chinooks. This may have been due to Chinooks also being held on standby. Comparative figures were not provided for the Caribou and C-130. Statistics can be inadvertently distorted, however there were consistent rumours that operational costs for the Caribou were approximately the same per flying hour as for the C-130H. Even if distorted it was apparent that the Caribou needed a high level of engine maintenance. Also it had become the only ADF airlifter still using AVGAS which is more costly and difficult to handle than turbine fuel. Anyway and although the Caribou provided lesser capabilities, it was apparently regarded as indispensable and so had to be kept flying.

On 1 July 1997, the Minister for Defence announced that three companies had been short-listed as potential suppliers of new LTA:

*  CASA with the CN235-300M and the C-295M,
*  IPTN with the CN235-330; and
*  LMATTS with the C-27J.

The reasons for excluding a Field Aviation from Canada proposal with a DHC-5D(mod) Buffalo were not made public. The capabilities of the DHC-5 Buffalo were proven and closely matched those specified in the ITR. Hence, the Canadians could reasonably expect that their proposal for refurbished and modernised DHC-5D aircraft - whose production had ended in 1985 or 1986 - would make the shortlist at least. But despite new current-model engines and modernised avionics, Defence - with recent experience of corrosion in its Blackhawks and Orions - was evidently not prepared to shortlist a part-paper concept based on airframes more than ten years old even if refurbished to zero-time standard.

In July 1999 Defence announced that: the CN-235-300M would not be required; neither of the other tenders currently met all requirements; CASA and LMATTS had been asked to clarify and resubmit their tenders for the C-295M and C-27J; re-assessment and selection of a preferred tenderer would extend into 2000 with announcement and contract signature expected in February and May, and the first delivery unchanged in mid-2001.

In early February 2000, an Australian technical journal reported on developments in AIR 5190 and attributed the information to Defence. The LTAC project office had completed its assessment of the revised tenders and made a recommendation which had yet to be examined by the DSSB. The Defence position on the project was that it was not simply a replacement for the Caribou and if that had been the case the aircraft would have been re-engined years previously. CASA and LMATTS had been told to expect definite information in late-February or March.

It was also generally known that the Defence budget was overstretched. Operational resources were heavily committed to the UN-endorsed deployment to East Timor, and preparations for security support during the Olympic Games. Rectification of the Collins-class submarines and procurement of the Hawk lead-in fighters/trainers and AEW&C aircraft were demanding a large component of the capital investment budget. The plans and schedules of all acquisition and infrastructure projects were under review and adjustments would be made for the near term.

Defence budget papers for FY 2000-2001 released in May 2000 mentioned an intention to review the ADF's tactical transport fleet including the way ahead for the Caribou. They referred also to studies to investigate life-of-type and supportability aspects for the aircraft.

In July 2000 technical journals were able to report authoritatively report that the LTAC project office had completed evaluation of revised tenders in November 1999, and that the DSSC had made a firm recommendation in late-February 2000. Defence had in June written to CASA and LMATTS advising them it had decided against a further extension of the tender process and that AIR 5190 was suspended but not cancelled. Defence had also briefed the primes on its reasons for not proceeding in the near term, and Air Force was to continue studies to determine how the Caribou could be kept in service for another 5 to 8 years.

In late-2000 the technical press reported that a group of several Australian companies and an American company Pen Turbo Aviation had proposed to Defence a private financed initiative for re-engining the Caribou, and that this was on similar lines to a study completed by de Havilland Canada during the 1980s. Pen Turbo had a prototype flying with the R-2000 Twin Wasp radials replaced by Pratt and Whitney Canada PT6A-67T turboprop engines (takeoff power 1,060kW) driving Hartzell 5-bladed propellers conveying a general improvement in hot and high performance. At the normal all-up weight of 12.9 tonnes and with STOL capabilities maintained, the DHC-4T prototype had demonstrated a 15 percent increase in maximum payload, substantial improvement in payload/range figures and a small increase in cruising speed.

en Turbo was in the process of obtaining FAR 25 supplemental type certification from Canadian and American authorities (issued 14 November 2000 and 27 February 2001 respectively). The proposal was for austere refurbishment with two re-engined aircraft on lease for training while ADF Caribous were sequentially modified for $US3-4m each. That seemed to be good value for money but the press reported in November that Air Force did not intend to pursue re-engining, or at least not prior to the new Defence White Paper.

On 22 May 2001, the Defence Minister issued a statement regarding the extension of the working life of the Caribou - essentially this involved extending the operation of the Caribou to 2010, from the previously planned withdrawal date of 2002/03. This provided funds to cover increased maintenance costs associated with supporting a 35 year-old aircraft, and to cover costs associated with sustainment of engines and other aircraft equipment. Funding will also replenish stocks of spares, which were deliberately drawn down in anticipation of the aircraft's withdrawal from service.

If you want to read more on the Turbo-prop conversion of the Caribou look here: http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-Turbo-Caribo...bou-July-05.pdf

Regards,

Greg

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Did de Havilland ever consider a cargo ramp version of the DASH-7 and DASH-8? 

The modified Caribou with the PT6 upgrade is really interesting to see, especially with the small size of the turbine in comparison to the huge area that was previously occupied by the Pratt & Whitney R-2000 Twin Wasp engines.   Also quite practical in how the PT6 exhaust is routed through the same spaces as the original engine exhaust. 

[kitnut617]

Did de Havilland ever consider a cargo ramp version of the DASH-7 and DASH-8? 

The modified Caribou with the PT6 upgrade is really interesting to see, especially with the small size of the turbine in comparison to the huge area that was previously occupied by the Pratt & Whitney R-2000 Twin Wasp engines.   Also quite practical in how the PT6 exhaust is routed through the same spaces as the original engine exhaust.

Not sure about the -7 & -8 but using this conversion might be a short cut to the turbo Caribou:  http://www.avm-maquetas.cl/index1.html ; look in the 1/72 conversion section and have a look at the gallery.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Not sure about the -7 & -8 but using this conversion might be a short cut to the turbo Caribou:  http://www.avm-maquetas.cl/index1.html ; look in the 1/72 conversion section and have a look at the gallery.

Robert,

I tried the link you provided and it is presenting the following message:

Not Found

The requested URL /index1.html  was not found on this server.
Apache/2.0.52 (CentOS) Server at www.avm-maquetas.cl Port 80

I went to the main page and so far I have not found anything that resembles a Caribou or Buffalo.

[kitnut617]

That's odd, I tried the link after I posted it and it worked yesterday but it doesn't now.  Anyway,  I was trying to point out that there is a turbo-Tracker conversion there and the nacelles look workable for the Caribou, the props definitely will.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

That's odd, I tried the link after I posted it and it worked yesterday but it doesn't now.  Anyway,  I was trying to point out that there is a turbo-Tracker conversion there and the nacelles look workable for the Caribou, the props definitely will.

Blame the disconnect on the vast corporate conspiracy theory or solar flares.  Either one works for me. 

What a shame that there is no affordable (I mean cheap) S-2 Tracker kits available in 1/48th scale with an option to convert to the Turbo-Tracker variant.  I would love to find a ready source for the multiple propeller blade combination that are now available for modern aircraft.   

[AeroplaneDriver]

I dont think they ever considered a ramp on the -7 or -8.