Hawker Typhoon, Tempest, and Sea Fury

[ysi_maniac]

Look like that Antonov 

Il-20 

[Weaver]

That'd work and probably balance well. Reminds me of the Arsenal VB-10 (and, oddly enough, the Arsenal VG-30 prototype was powered by a flat-12).

The idea comes from a Fairey design that was, via a convoluted path, an "ancestor" of the Gannet. It was a bit portly though, because it used Merlins, which got me thinking about an idealised flatter version. The design's in British Secret Projects - WWII .

It occurs to me that your Tempest/Seahawk idea could also work with a radial (perhaps with some funky gearing or a raised cockpit).

There was a Piaggio design very much like that, the P.119:

http://www.aviastar.org/air/italy/piaggio_p-119.php

[kitnut617]

Bottom one for me apophenia, that looks very nice. 

[redstar72]

Nice concepts Apophenia! I like them.

[Just call me Ray]

IMHO that's the best yet!

[Weaver]

Nice one Apo-  they look really good.  Got me thinking now: I've got a started Novo Sea Fury missing it's canopy, a Novo Seahawk on it's way and two Airfix ones in the stash......

[GTX]

Damn nice!

Regards,

Greg

[kitnut617]

That top one in the last pic is the cat's meow Apo' --- I love it    I think I'm going to attempt making that one if it's alright with you.  I think I would incorporate the Sea Hawk intakes and revise the trailing edge where the exhaust comes out into a long slot for the radiator air exit.

Regarding the Centaurus powered one, as the engine cowling would be quite a bit bigger (diameter wise) than the cockpit, what about something like a 'primitave' Harrier style cooling intakes just aft of the canopy, sort of like an Attacker arrangement.  The Tempest Mk.II didn't use gills like how you show it, what about using the Tempest/Sea Fury style of vent door which was just behind the exhaust stubs.

[Weaver]

More nice work Apo.! 

Re the engine diameter, you could always claim that it's an ultra-souped-up Hercules instead of a Centaurus, in fact, you could claim that it has Thunderbolt-style turbo-supercharging, exploiting the layout to avoid the Jug's 20ft backwards and forwards ducting arrangement.

If you kept the mid-wing position, would the Tiffie u/c need to be longer? If it did, could you also keep the Seahawk inner wing, modified as a cooling inlet/outlet, and extend the gear bays into it, thus allowing longer u/c?

[Weaver]

Just done some test fitting with a Novo Sea Fury and an Airfix Seahawk. Interesting:

1. The Centaurus cowling will almost fit inside the Seahawk fuselage, in fact, if you stretch the latter very slightly, you can close it up with the Centaurus inside (with minor PSR).

2. The Sea Fury u/c legs look like they'd be long enough to support the nose far enough off the deck with the wing in the mid-position, however that would depend on the diameter of the prop (see below)

3. The Sea Fury wing roots have, unsuprisingly, a much longer chord than the Sea Hawk outer wing roots, so you couldn't just graft them on without extending the latter. However, the Sea Fury wing is moulded in two parts to allow it to be made up folded, and the outer part is a near perfect match to the Sea Hawk inners, giving a very aggressive swept-forward "lobster" look. The issue of the u/c would still need to be resolved, however.

4. The Sea Fury spinner is the size of the entire Sea Hawk nose forward of the windscreen! This means that you can't just graft it on, unless you want the gearbox to be in the pilot's lap. Options would seem to me to be:

a. Move the cockpit further back,

b. Extend the nose with a tubular section, which would be "entertainingly ugly" rather than elegant,

c. Extend the nose elegantly, and fit a contra-prop of much smaller diameter, which would also help with the u/c issue,

d. Deepen the Sea Hawk's nose, so that the spinner goes on the front of the existing nose, with it's upper edge level with it, and a tubular fairing that blends it into the lower fuselage. This is probably the most practical option since it makes more room for the shaft, but note that it makes the undercarriage problem worse by lowering the prop axis.

More thoughts:

I too like the idea of vent doors rather than gills for the cooling air exits: you could have four of them around the rear fuselage and claim that it's the exhaust pipes which exit from the wing root trailing edge.

Further to that, if you wern't using the Sea Hawk inner wings with the intakes, you could have four similar flush or semi-flush (NACA?) intakes around the forward fuselage for cooling air intake.

If you did want a radial slot intake, gill exhausts and a fatter fuselage, you could simply wrap two half-tubes of plasticard around it. The curvature of the fuselage itself would then produce intake and exhaust slots: all you'd need to do is slot the trailing edge to make the gills.

[Weaver]

Just had another look through BSP 1935-50 again. There are two other projects relevent to this discussion:

Fairey N.7/43 Design "C" (Page 177). This had a centre-mounted Griffon, a rear-mounted radiator with ventral scoop and flush dorsal exhaust, and a very Sea Hawk-like fuselage.

Westland Strike Fighter (page 185). This was a Wyvern ancestor with a RR Eagle in the centre fuselage and contra-props.

[kitnut617]

Westland Strike Fighter (page 185). This was a Wyvern ancestor with a RR Eagle in the centre fuselage and contra-props.

This is another on my 'to-do' list, I've even got a CMK Wyvern TF.1 kit to use.  'Course I also got another to make a Clyde powered version too as well as another to make the 'standard' version

[Weaver]

Westland Strike Fighter (page 185). This was a Wyvern ancestor with a RR Eagle in the centre fuselage and contra-props.

This is another on my 'to-do' list, I've even got a CMK Wyvern TF.1 kit to use.  'Course I also got another to make a Clyde powered version too as well as another to make the 'standard' version

If the contraprop from my FROG/NOVO one gets nicked for something else, I intend to stretch the nose and make it the RR AJ.65-engined W.36 version.....

[Weaver]

Here's another suggestion for an engine for the Sea Furyhawk: a turbo-supercharged Hercules-18.

WTF is a Hercules-18? Well a while back, on another forum, I came up with a rationalised production plan for Bristol Engines, the essentials of which were to dump the small-cylinder Aquila/Taurus line, develop the Perseus faster and further, and make the Hercules a full 18-cylinder "twin-Perseus". With reasonable development, this should get them to the end of WWII without needing the Centaurus at all, allowing a faster move into jets.

Since the Herc-18 would have the same Mercury-sized cylinders as the real Herc-14, it should, logically, have a smaller diameter than the Centaurus with it's Jupiter-sized ones, and would thus fit into a Seahawk-diameter fuselage without controversy. Then, as I posted earlier, the reason for adopting the mid-engine layout might be to use turbo-supercharging without having the same extensive ducting as the P-47.

[Weaver]

Nice. I like the Herc-18 idea. In this alt history, would both Herc-14 and Herc-18 be produced?

Cheers! No they wouldn't: the fully developed Perseus would take the lower end of the Herc-14's territory and the early Herc-18 would take the upper end. Some aircraft designs would have to be changed to accomodate larger-diameter engines, but that's not the end of the world, plus they'd gain in development potential. Imagine a Blenheim with 1000bhp+ Perseii, or a Beaufort with Herc-18s......