Hawker Typhoon, Tempest, and Sea Fury

[rickshaw]

Anybody willing to have a go with the Airfix 1/24 scale Typhoon model?   

[Gondor]

Its been done once to my knowlege. A gent by the name of George Munroe from IPMS Brampton built it years ago. It did a few shows on his club stand, then disapeared from view. I have one photo of it in my files from the 2004 Hornechurch show.

Thanks OGL, that's pretty much how I figured it would look in bubble canopy form.

It's very impressive, in model form and in RW. It would have made a good replacement for the Firebrand perhaps, but maybe with a Centaurus instead of the Sabre. Somehow I can't see the FAA loving the complexities of the Sabre all that much.

Swap the nose from a Matchbox Tempest onto a Typhoon Kit?

Gondor

[The Wooksta!]

Tempest is longer - there's an additional section aft of the firewall and contains fuel.  Maybe start with a Matchbox Tempest and add the wing from the Typhoon?  IIRC, Paul Lloyd did a decent Typhoon by cross kitting the Heller Tempest with an Airfix Typhoon.

[James W.]

Hi guys, I'm new here, but I'm a long-time scale modeller, & Hawker enthusiast.
Reading through this thread, I figured I'd add a few things..

Here is an excellent article on the Fury prototypes flown with Napier Sabre power:
https://oldmachinepress.com/2014/10/14/hawker-fury-i-sabre-powered

Seems a real pity Hawker could not put VP 207 aside for keeps.
That every last Sabre-powered aircraft in Blighty was scrapped - is a shocker..

About the Sea Typhoon, sadly, there was virtually no chance of the FAA ever getting it..
..the RAF had dibs on Typhoons, & actual production was so awfully problematic..

To judge by this: www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/typhoon/Typhoon_AFDU_Tactical_Trials.pdf
a Sea Typhoon would have been a formidable aircraft carrier borne weapon.

Can any show a documented service test in 1941/42 - of a fighter - with a superior performance?

& to clear up the 'radiator scoop - as cause of fatal ditching' issue..
this is discussed & debunked in Sqd Ldr Jim Sheddan's book - Tempest Pilot.

Sheddan survived a Typhoon ditching, & remarks that a light-alloy radiator matrix & scoop
is not the reason for problematic Typhoon ditching, as wheels-up terra firma  belly-ins showed..
The actual problem was the thick wing section, which tended to sit down in water & suddenly
stop dead, usually incapacitating the pilot from the massive G forces stunning him.

Sheddan goes on to show water tank-test photos of the Tempest being checked for that too,
& in spite of sharing that big chin scoop, its thin 'laminar flow' wing enabled a smooth ditching.

This 3000hp Tempest F6 : https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1946/1946%20-%201455.html
with a Sabre on ADI -was good for 418 mph at sea-level & 455 mph at 17,000ft, - a good subject for a model.

[NARSES2]

Wellcome aboard. Some interesting snippets there 

[James W.]

Ta, so here's another couple of 'Flight' articles.

This one notes that Hawkers were still operating their Sabre Fury in 1948, ( 'damn their eyes' - for scrapping it).
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1948/1948%20-%200430.html

& here: https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1948/1948%20-%201660.html 
is a write up of the Tempests used by Napiers for testing, inc' annual radiators & that high-boost Tempest F.6.

The speeds of the 'standard' F.6 ( chin radiator) on ADI @ 17.25lb boost shown on the graph, are those in my 1st post.

[James W.]

& This 1946 'Flight' table of British military aircraft shows the last gasp of the piston engine powered fighters..

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1946/1946%20-%202270%20-%200012.html

Certainly the RAF had by then stated they wanted only new jets for the role, even if the FAA had to wait for them , as usual..

The irony being that the FAA got a nice Sea Hawk while the RAF waited so long for the Hunter, &  'withering on the vine'  Meatbox-wise..
..that they had to score some Canadian-built Sabre jets to fly a proper swept-wing job..
..even Australia (partly) gave up British & built Sabres (with R-R Avon power, & twin 30mm Aden cannon, probably the best - if late - F-86 variant..

Anyhow, it shows how the final generation of prop-fighters in British service - shaped up in basic performance terms, versus the initial jets..

[James W.]

What if?  Ideas on the thread topic..

The USAAF were fairly impressed by the Tempest, even with the early series ( low-boost Sabre) Tempest V they tested..
( see appraisal here: www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/tempest/Tempest-V_Eng-47-1658-C.pdf )

What if the Brits had actually built enough Tempests to be able to supply them on reverse L-L, so the  USAAF could operate a wing of 'em?

Much like the way the 8th AF kept the 56th F.G. as their sole P-47 unit, flying the high performance P-47 M-variant?
A 'colorful' 8th AF Tempest could be a 'what if''  - in Al  finish, plus color ID bands, & nose art, or much like the 56th's T-bolts - in novel camo schemes..

& as a further 'what if', - according to F.K. Mason, the prototype Tempest Mk VI was flying in May 1944, & when trials tested at Boscombe down,
"revealed  a maximum speed of 462 mph at 19,800 feet..."  - maybe a USAAF Tempest Mk VI?

Or reverse L-L USAAF Typhoons in the MTO, akin to the Spit Mk VIII's they flew, & painted in sand & spinach, like the RAF/RAAF desert trials Typhoons..
or, like the RAAF Spit VIII's - an Australian schemed 'tropical' Typhoon, or Tempest, ready to put a rocket - up the kyber - of Tojo's boys?

What of the Tempest V in Nazi hands - which Rechlin test pilot H-W Lerche  -rated so highly?
What if the Soviets got it intact, & tested it too,but painted in a Russian livery scheme?

Could do a 'cold war' Tempest II - as seized by the VVS, after landing in the Eastern Sector, being lost on a reciprocal vector, like Arnim's 190,
or a Centaurus powered La 9, using parts from an 'impounded' Sea Fury.

[NARSES2]

I built a whole line up of What If Typhoons, USAAF, French, Australian, Italian (post war) Russian etc. Often considered a line up of Tempests V to go with them but never got around to it. However a USAAF Tempest II is definitely on the cards

[The Wooksta!]

Go Matchbox.  The Special Hobby one is a horror to build.  I loathed mine so much that it's rotting in a box unfinished.

[James W.]

Ok, yeah - the Sabre Fury is the best looking bird of the Typhoon/Tempest/Fury line, but given the various different radiator systems fitted across the range..
..from the regular 'chin' through the elegant Hawker leading edge type, the R-R offset semi-annular Griffon set-up to the Napier annular ( inc' the 'dick nose'),
has anyone seen a complete potential Fury engine line-up? (You could include the US radial  transplants too, if you must)..

An interesting what if, - if the R-R Vulture had been ah, cured* - how about a Fury prototype with a Vulture, with its  X 4 rows of stacks poking out?

* Cue shades of HAL 9000/Alex Delage, with "I 'm feeling much better now, Dave"/"I was 'cured' alright."

( To be fair, ironically the Vulture had hacked punting the Tornado around ok, it was the drudge duty in the Manchester which brutalised it into collapse).

[zenrat]

...what if...the R-R Vulture had been ah, cured* - how about a Fury prototype with a Vulture, with its  X 4 rows of stacks poking out?...

You could build one James.  You should be able to get hold of a Frog Fury fairly cheaply.

[The Wooksta!]

I've a pair of Tornadoes somewhere.  One will eventually be an in service one, what with four blade prop, bubble hood and big tailplanes.

The idea of fitting a Vulture to a Tempest is a good one, except you have to move the wings.  Tornado had a deeper fuselage that runs under the wing.  It's actually very subtle and quite a few have missed it, thinking it's just the engine that differs Tornado and Typhoon.

[James W.]

...what if...the R-R Vulture had been ah, cured* - how about a Fury prototype with a Vulture, with its  X 4 rows of stacks poking out?...

You could build one James.  You should be able to get hold of a Frog Fury fairly cheaply.

Yeah ta Z, I've done few different ones already, but what about the Vulture?
Is there a Typhoon-to-Tornado conversion available, (similar to the one for the Tempest Mk I* ), that could donate the front-end?

Or any other Vulture source? Or is it a scratch-build prospect, AFAYK?

* Maybe that one could work, as a scratchy basis..

[James W.]

I've a pair of Tornadoes somewhere.  One will eventually be an in service one, what with four blade prop, bubble hood and big tailplanes.

The idea of fitting a Vulture to a Tempest is a good one, except you have to move the wings.  Tornado had a deeper fuselage that runs under the wing.  It's actually very subtle and quite a few have missed it, thinking it's just the engine that differs Tornado and Typhoon.

Have a close look at the Napier annular jobs, they appear to have their Sabres mounted in a slightly shifted location too..
Of course, the Tempest had both a thinner wing & longer nose, which the Fury also inherited.. so the concern there is moot..

But I take your point about the original Tornado, the difference with the Typhoon was the Sabre could sit above the main spar, but not so the Vulture..
..this meant that Avro was left 'high & dry' by R-R's cancellation, with bulk production Tornado airframes to scrap - they were useless for the Typhoon..

I guess R-R did come to the party, by saving the Manchester from being a dud with its power-egg Merlin - originally slated for the Beaufighter..
..thus doing an 'ugly duckling' routine - to morph into the Lancaster..