Chieftain and Challenger

[BillSlim]

We usually only discuss aircraft here, but I don't see why we can't do a whiff on tanks for a change.

At the moment only the UK and Oman use the Challenger 2, and since it failed to gain the Greek contract BAE are no longer marketing the export version, the Challenger 2E.

But what if more countries bought the Chally, perhaps some of those who bought the Leo2, or Abrams.

How about Kuwait for a start to go along with their Warriors?

[GeorgeC]

Quickest way getting a feel for this is to look at the many nations which used Centurion.  I doubt the IDF would have give up Merkava development, but lots of the others would have looked good - especially if the Challenger had beaten the Leopard in a few more (any(!)) competitions.  Swiss, Swedish, Dutch, Australian, Canadian and Jordanian all spring to mind.  You may also like consider a Challenger with a 120mm smoothbore - after all the UK MOD is and has paid for a technology demostration, as the German gun gets descent penetration out of tungesten projectiles without resorting to DU.

Regards

GeorgeC
 

[BillSlim]

Fitting an export varient with the new L55 smoothbore (basically the gun from the Leo2A6) is a possibility.

Of all the modern Western tanks available, only the Abrams and Chally are combat proven, so I guess the Leo2s popularity is probably down to what some writters have called the 'BMW effect'. Possibly also most nations prefer smoothbore over rifled.

Interestingly most tankies think that the L30 is only being replaced by the L55 because the UK no longer has any capacity to make 120mm shells (ROF Bishopton closed in 2001 IIRC) and the ammo made in South Africa was not up to standard.
The RAC guys were also pretty happy with a rifled gun.
There was a long thread on this on ARRSE.

As it happens the IDF nearly bought the Cheiftain (1 was tested in Isreal), but politics got in the way. So maybe if they had bought Chieftain they might have bought Chally.

Perhaps if Leo2 was not as easily available; say the Germans needed all production for themselves; the Chally might have done better.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

There is no doubt that the Chieftain and Challenger are very good combat vehicles as this was proven during the Iran-Iraq war.  While I am not a real fan of the bag charge ammunition, the 120mm rifle used on the Chieftain and Challenger is a good performer.  The idea of using the smoothbore gun on the Challenger does indeed make me ask the question of how and where are they going to stow the ammuniton?  The 120mm ammunition for the Abrams and Leopard is quite large and bulky in comparison to the separate loading projectile and bag charge arrangement of the current weapon.  

Since the Chieftain was tested by Israel (at least two test vehicles were provided) and the suspension of the Merkava is very similar if not identical to the Chieftain and Challenger in design it is safe to say that the Merkava was influenced by the Chieftain.  Here are some questions that need some discussion:

Merkava/Challenger:

Merkava built with the 120mm rifled gun from the Chieftain/Challenger in a Merkava turret.  

Merkava built with the turret from the Challenger or Chieftain.    

Joint production by the UK and Israel of a hybrid Merkava for the IDF and a hybrid Challenger for the UK using the best features of both vehicles.  


Challenger/Leopard:

Challenger built with 120mm smoothbore from the Leopard 2A6

Challenger built with the turret from the Leopard.

Joint production of a hybrid Challenger for the UK and a hybrid Leopard for the Germany using the best features of both vehicles.  


Anyone else up to making suggestions or comments?

[Joeisamonkey]

Hey Fellas,

The Challenger with a Merkava turret would be cool as hell. Along those lines, how about a SADF Chieftan with a Merkava I turret. With a nice tan and green camoflage?  

Take care,

Joe of W

[Captain Canada]

Tanks are cool.....and I'd love to see the CDN Army drive some Challenger 2s. Especially now that we've poo-poo-canned our Leos. But wait, we're getting the Stryker ! Much better to mount a gun atop a soft skinned wheeled vehicle.......

Crazy fools.

[GeorgeC]

Don't build ANYTHING on a Chieftain chassis with the L60 engine - the best tank in the World as long as it breaks down in a good fire position...

regards

GeorgeC

[BillSlim]

Don't build ANYTHING on a Chieftain chassis with the L60 engine - the best tank in the World as long as it breaks down in a good fire position...

The L60's problems were (expesivley) cured in the 1970s, at the cost of the multi-fuel capability.

As for possible Canadian Cally2s, I'd like to see them too. Be good for jobs in the UK    

[dexter059]

Love this thread    

Some thoughts:

- After the support given by Chile to UK during Falklands, Lady Thatcher allows a big sweapon sale in retribuition. So, first gives a bunch of updated Chieftains that could be replaced by the lete 90ss for used Chally1 or by late 00s for new Chally2. (instead of ex dutch &ex german Leo 1 & 2 of real world). Let´s dream of100 Chieftains and later another 100 Challies.

- South Africa indeed. Updating old Olifants could be extremely expensive, and since the end of Apartheid and return of SA to Commonwelth, the UK sales used Chally 1 to replace the aging Olifants and the Chally 2 as part of the 2000 modernization program. Think about 200 units for them.

- India stops it´s close partnership with USSR/Russia, drops it´s indigenous MBT program and evaluates and aqcuires Chally 2 and a load of other military equipment from UK/Europe to counter the chinese threat (many, many jobs in UK/Europe defence industries). So, 200 units are bought directly from UK source and another 1300 are built in India, replaceing their entire MBT fleet.

- Israel: Don´t think so, even in What If Land. Too close ties to USA could have avoided such operations.

- As said before, ex Centurion users (Switzerland, Sweden, etc) except Denmark (since operated close too close to West Germany in case of a soviet invasion), they choose to remain with german built vehicles.

- Saudi Arabia chooses the Chally2 over the Abrams, since the tubine driven M1A2 has many problems operating in the dusty saudi desert.

Like the discussion, keep it up

Cheers    

[wolfik]

Im building an IDF Chieftain ´82 with blazer armour....
the challenger in idf service was to crazy  ^_^  

[Ginge!]

Hey Bill, I bandied this one about earlier, back when I was making my Cr 2E whiff, that ultimately became an Omani Desertized Challenge:


This weekend I start work on a Challenger 2E, for the South African Defence Force.

I'll be modding the Cr 2 to "E" standard, and then adding a 120mm smoothbore, dual protected weapon stations, mine clearance device, hull & turret armour, and few other bits.

Initially, I wanted to go with a Greek Cr 2E, as Alvis had even taken part in the Greek trials, with a Cr 2E painted in Greek Army camouflage. However, the Hellenic Army selected the Leopard.

Then I decided to do it Australian, but the diggers went and selected the M1 Abrams. I was running out of options - the last thing I wanted to do was put all this work into a Cr 2E and leave it in Company Demonstrator markings. All of the mods I've planned for this model are either really on the Cr 2E, or have been suggested by Alivis, or picked up in defence trade magazines.

So I cracked open Janes and began looking at every country that was ready to retire their current MBT and use a new one.

Though a wiffer, I wanted it to be as grounded in reality as possible. Therefore I established the following conditions:

- Could not be a country that already produces its own MBT, ruling out France, Germany, Israel, Italy, Japan, USA. Also ruled out countries that historically purchased from Russia or China

- Country had to have a defence budget that traditionally procured an MBT as part of its Army inventory

- And of course, it had to be a country that was looking to purchase a new tank, so it could not already be operating a later generation tank such as Leopard 2, Leclerc, M1

Those conditions ruled out a lot of countries. I was left with the following:

-Bahrain – they are a good one, using M60's, and have purchase much of their military eqpt from the UK.

-Belgium, a leopard 1 user, but has not yet selected leopard 2 for replacement

-Brazil, Canada, Czech Republic, all countries using older tanks, but not sure if they are still in the market for an MBT.

-Jordan – possible, but they seem to be doing their own upgrades with the Falcon.

-Morocco – interesting, a possibility, though I don't know if they'd go for such an expensive MBT

-Poland, but then they went and got the Leopard 2A4

-South Africa, they are still using the Olifant Ml 1 a & b (a Centurion tank, albeit heavily upgraded) so a real possibility as that tank is showing its age. The South Afircans are expected to receive increased defence funding in 2010 for re-equipment projects (according to Janes), and they have an expanding regional security role. A New MBT was on the books for the army, but was dropped in favour of an APC. Plus, the Cr2E was proven in Oman and Iraq as a strong desert performer.

[Ginge!]

Tanks are cool.....and I'd love to see the CDN Army drive some Challenger 2s. Especially now that we've poo-poo-canned our Leos. But wait, we're getting the Stryker ! Much better to mount a gun atop a soft skinned wheeled vehicle.......

Crazy fools.

Nope - Stryker MGS is canned. Leopard C2A1 will soldier on until at least 2015.  

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Since they look so much alike and share many of the same components. 

How about a CEV version armed with the 165mm demolition gun and the bulldozer blade kit? 

What about a version armed with the 152mm gun and missile launcher that was used on the M551 Sheridan and M60A2? 

Has anyone seen a test vehicle armed with anything other than the Royal Ordnance 120mm gun.  Perhaps a version with the 120mm gun from the Leopard and M1 Abrams?

[kitnut617]

My brother-in-law used to drive Chieftains and early Challengers, I'll ask him if he knows anything.  Mind you he's been out of the army for nearly 16 years or so.

[pyro-manic]

Bovington has a Stealth Chieftain in it's collection. I've got a couple of photos somewhere - I'll see if I can dig them out.

Just as a note, Chally 2 is being upgraded with the gun from the Leopard 2 (smoothbore, longer barrel). It actually looks the same externally though, as the existing thermal sleeve for the barrel is retained.